"Wales has decided to close the Churches again. I will be arrested before I deny the sacraments to the people of God again."

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I don’t believe the threat is as severe as you think it is…
Well, we’re treating it seriously in Australia and we have a handful of new cases each day. You have, and I repeat, nearly twenty thousand new cases each day. And pushing 50,000 deaths. And winter approaching. How much worse will it need to get before you do understand the seriousness?
 
They’ve been closed for 3 weeks so far in Dublin and set to be shut for a further 6 weeks now that we are in Level 5 lockdown. Depressing.
 
Depressing.
That’s really up to you. The only thing preventing you from using the situation to deepen your faith and grow and produce good fruit is, well, you yourself. You can choose to make the most of it, or you can grip and sulk. It’s TOTALLY up to you.
 
As he said in the interview:

"The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it,” he said.

That’s exactly the reason they are doing it in Wales. To prevent the health system being overridden. If they are running close to capacity now then another spike will see people being turned away from hospitals, morgues at capacity, front line health workers getting sick. If you have a thirty year old father of two and a seventy year old woman both needing Intensive Care, then do you really want to start making the sort of choices that will entail? Who gets turned away?
 
I think that we have higher priorities than going to church right now.
Sounds like something an atheist would say (I know you aren’t one).
You are approaching 20,000 cases a day!
Exactly, cases. The death rate is more or less the same as it was a few months ago and there are far more people now getting tested, so naturally you’re going to record more cases. I’m not convinced there are more cases now than there were in say, June.
 
In certain cases it is not only okay to ignore a Bishop’s order, but it is the duty of a priest to ignore a bishop’s order.
Actually that’s not theologically correct. A priest shares in the ministry of his bishop and thus can’t act independent of his bishop and certainly, if anything else, the promise of respect and obedience requires him do so. Here of course,it’s actually a matter of refraining from doing something rather than undertaking a positive act - so it’s actually less onerous.

Still, nothing in the lockdown rules prevents Fr Palmer from saying mass privately, administering the sacraments to those most in need or from pastoring his flock. So, I would respectfully suggest that he gets off of Twitter, gets his oils, gets out of his presbytery and goes and does his job.
 
Catholics have a right to the Sacraments,
Please cite a Vatican source, because I think that’s incorrect.
we cannot be denied them indefinitely.
Not seeing how this is even happening. The news articles I read said the churches in Wales were closing for 3 Sundays and will be reopening on Nov. 9. So it’s not “indefinite”. Furthermore, the churches will be open for weddings and funerals, with certain restrictions on attendance. And the priest would seem to be permitted to administer certain sacraments outside the church.

Overreacting to restrictions does not do anything for the credibility of the overreactor.
 
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scousekiwi:
I think that we have higher priorities than going to church right now.
Sounds like something an atheist would say (I know you aren’t one).
You are approaching 20,000 cases a day!
Exactly, cases. The death rate is more or less the same as it was a few months ago and there are far more people now getting tested, so naturally you’re going to record more cases. I’m not convinced there are more cases now than there were in say, June.
So it was this bad back in June but you just didn’t know it. And that’s meant to be a good thing…

Effectively, measures you need to take now should have been taken months ago.
 
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Honestly, I think that we have higher priorities than going to church right now.
With respect, you’re not currently a practicing Catholic and from your past posts, I wonder if you truly understand that it’s difficult for devout Catholics to give up “going to church”.

Having said that, it is a sacrifice that many Catholics would make for the public good, which is a type of Love of Neighbor. Maybe that’s what you meant to say. But your remark comes off as really dismissive and a bit hurtful to those of us for whom attending Mass and receiving Jesus is truly important and not just something to be cast aside lightly.
 
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Effectively, measures you need to take now should have been taken months ago.
No, it means the reasoning as to why certain measures need to be taken now, because it’s ‘worse than it’s ever been’, is false. It’s no worse now than it was then, so why suddenly instill panic in people now?

The only good enough reason I can see for doing a national lockdown for a few weeks, is if a nation’s health service literally cannot cope with demand and is in imminent danger of ending up in a similar position to what Italy was in half a year ago, where there were literally hundreds of patients lying unattended in beds in corridors because there wasn’t enough staff and were not enough resources for them. I don’t know if that’s the situation in Wales right now, but it certainly isn’t in the England. In fact they built a makeshift hospital in London with thousands of beds, that wasn’t even needed.

I appreciate that some people are badly affected by this and suffer from Covid more than others, but the same could be said for many other diseases. The numbers of people who die from flu each year is very high too, but we don’t keep a tally of it and impose restrictions on people to keep those at risk from flu safe. Since June more people have died from flu in the UK than of Covid.
 
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If I was the only person at risk, then I would not hesitate to go to mass. Sadly; our actions can affect others.
 
If I was the only person at risk, then I would not hesitate to go to mass. Sadly; our actions can affect others.
Yes, if my husband or mother were still alive, both of whom would be way more “at risk” than I am, then I would be far more concerned about bringing the virus home to them. Since it’s just me, I can live with the risk.
 
Fr. Palmer is a good, holy priest. I watched his Mass livestreams during lockdown, great man. May the Lord guide him so that he may lead his flock to salvation.
 
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Freddy:
Effectively, measures you need to take now should have been taken months ago.
No, it means the reasoning as to why certain measures need to be taken now, because it’s ‘worse than it’s ever been’, is false. It’s no worse now than it was then, so why suddenly instill panic in people now?

The only good enough reason I can see for doing a national lockdown for a few weeks, is if a nation’s health service literally cannot cope with demand and is in imminent danger of ending up in a similar position to what Italy was in half a year ago, where there were literally hundreds of patients lying unattended in beds in corridors because there wasn’t enough staff and were not enough resources for them. I don’t know if that’s the situation in Wales right now, but it certainly isn’t in the England. In fact they built a makeshift hospital in London with thousands of beds, that wasn’t even used.
"The first minister, Mark Drakeford, insisted the two-week “firebreak” – under which schools, shops, pubs and hotels will close and citizens will be told to stay at home – was needed to prevent thousands more deaths and the NHS becoming overwhelmed.

The move means England is the only part of the UK not to bring in a form of national “circuit breaker”, even though it has been advised to do so by experts on the Sage committee, by teachers’ leaders, doctors and by the Labour party.

And:

As up to 95% of intensive care beds were reported to be full in some hospitals in Liverpool – half with coronavirus patients – growing concerns were raised about the NHS becoming overwhelmed.

And:

A modelling study by researchers at the University of Warwick and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine has suggested that a UK-wide lockdown at the end of October would halve deaths from covid-19 between then and the end of 2020.

Read more: Covid-19 news: Blood test to detect long covid may soon be possible | New Scientist

If the infection rate is higher than the NHS can cope with (it doesn’t need to increase) then people will eventually be turned away from hospitals.
 
Also, this life will be over in almost no time. How fast time flies. Yet, heaven and hell are forever. The state cannot impose its will upon the Church to prevent the Church in ministering to her people. Eternal life trumps temporal life.
 
I could provide you just as many sources that suggest a lockdown is a bad idea. I assume you’ve heard about the Great Barrington Declaration signed by over 6000 medical professionals, arguing against a lockdown and for restrictions to be more focused on the vulnerable rather than forcing perfectly healthy people into house arrest.

If Liverpool is almost at full capacity then perhaps a circuit breaker lockdown might be needed there for a couple of weeks. They have already been placed into the highest restriction level currently available, tier 3.

What I’m against is a national lockdown, as well as absurd restrictions that make no sense, such as, a single person (who lives by himself/herself) can go to dinner with a family of 5, but 2 people from households with more than one person cannot go for a coffee together.
 
The state cannot impose its will upon the Church to prevent the Church in ministering to her people.
It’s highly debatable whether a three-week hiatus with weddings, funerals, sacraments outside the Church still permitted, in a case of public health concern constitutes “Preventing the Church in ministering to her people”.

The priest who posted right in this thread (Fr. Inthepew) seems to think there are still ample ways for the clergy to go minister to those who need ministering.
 
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Unless he believes that he is doing Gods will which is ofcourse above the Bishop. In history people who have disobeyed bishops have been one of two things, saints or sinners. Depending of course on the Bishop. It’s not for us to judge from where we are, nor can any one person say across the board. Each priest must make his choice for his parish as he has to live by it and more importantly, die by it… Some Bishops might even stand up and disobey themselves. The gov is not their boss.
 
I do apologise if the way in which I expressed myself was hurtful. I can assure you that I understand how difficult it has been to be unable to worship in the various ways to which we are accustomed. For almost 40 years I have said the Daily Office virtually every day. When I moved to Cambridge, one of my great joys was being able to attend Choral Evensong. Since the beginning of the pandemic, that is something which I have had to sacrifice. Even now that we have resumed worship in church, it is not like it was before. The congregation is greatly reduced, people queue in silence to be allowed into church, they sit spaced widely apart either alone or with members of their household, everybody wears a mask, nobody is allowed to sing, there is no sign of peace. It is a miserable situation, and we all long for the day when normal life returns.

That being said, I do not consider attending public acts of worship to be of paramount importance right now. Our first priority must be to save lives. I honestly do not believe that attending worship, whether that is Catholic Mass or Muslim Friday prayers, is important enough to risk causing death on a large scale. Our second priority must be to preserve the infrastructure of society. The more the virus spreads, the less healthcare systems can cope. First, healthcare systems risk being overwhelmed by patients with coronavirus, but, secondly, there is disruption to the treatment of patients with other conditions. This is the situation in the UK. It may be that in the US, where healthcare is vastly superior, this is not a problem. Our children and young adults have still not returned to fully normal education. Millions of people are unemployed. After years of austerity, public spending is once again spiralling out of control despite vastly reduced income. If people living in the worst affected areas are asked to stay away from their places of worship while we struggle to overcome the worst pandemic for a century combined with a crisis in public services, mass unemployment, and a looming economic disaster, I think that is reasonable.

I would add that in the UK (I know that in many other countries this has not been a problem), we are also suffering because of widespread disregard for the rules imposed. In Cambridge, people are quite law-abiding, but that is not the situation in larger cities where there are flagrant breaches of the law and the police do not have the resources to intervene. Furthermore, although it is unlikely that this will ever be confirmed by official sources, there is strong anecdotal evidence that these breaches are more common in deprived areas and among black people (I am talking about in British cities, not African Americans). Of course, politicians and their staff have also been notable offenders. Nottingham, where Father Palmer is based, is a city in the English Midlands with large areas of poverty, high rates of crime, and a large black community. What sort of message does it send to the rest of the community if a priest, a white man educated at one of the country’s finest public schools and with multiple university degrees, is publicly stating that he intends to break the law?
 
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