Lots of people do that, avoid pregnancy, without contraception.Assuming laziness as the only possible motive just shows that you have not really understood many peoples position. A better reason would be to ensure that another pregnancy did not come about, a pregnancy that goes against the wishes of the parents and God.
I agree that the Holy Spirit can speak through the laity which is why it is so very refreshing to hear the Pope listening to us. At the same time I trust him to weed out the errors also. It is just very very good to be heard.
Again none of those examples apply to me or even to the people I have in mind.Which is why premarital sex, buoyed by contraception, is so rare today? Or why birthrates are so high in the West? Or why pornography, an obvious child of the contraceptive revolution that holds sex to be about pleasure rather than procreation, is minimally present in the country? Which is why nobody cohabitates, again, aided by the “safety” of contraceptive sex that promises the good vibes of sex without the very natural consequence of children?
Right.
I think the Pope is listening to me… because he cares. Not that it matters much to this conversation but I do not deny the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist within the Catholic Church or within the Eastern Orthodox Church either.Lots of people do that, avoid pregnancy, without contraception.
And you ignored the crux of my second statement, I notice. Also, you aren’t Catholic and openly dissent from Church teaching. Why should the Pope listen to you? Why would we entertain the ideas of heretics? Of we did that, you’d have us denying the true presence.
Again, things other than the Holy Spirit can speak through the laity and the clergy. I’d suggest you try reading the Screwtape Letters.
What is preposterous about self control or natural family planning? Here, Pope Paul VI explains the Church’s position about artificial birth control:I think part of the mistake being made here is to view the layperson as a group only in need of instruction rather than as a part of the mystical body of Christ through whom instruction and teaching arise.
Being open to life could have been defined and illuminated in many ways that did allow for birth control for married couples but it wasn’t. When very faithful Catholics who are deeply devoted to Christ find the Church teachings on birth control unrealistic I think the hierarchy should listen to Christ speaking through the masses.
Its not as if the only options are that the hierarchy is always right and if they sway to public opinion they are going down a slippery slope-- that is lazy thinking. Sometimes Christ is speaking through the masses and the hierarchy ought to be humble enough to listen.
I am a non Catholic but deeply devoted Christian who also has a deep permanent respect for the Catholic Church. However the idea that my 43 year old wife and I can only have sexual connection (something we have found to be deeply sacred) without birth control is preposterous and completely disconnected from our lived reality and even Gods will in my opinion.
No, the Church could not have a different teaching if it chose. It’s job is not to choose teachings, or to change teachings, but to hand down the teaching of Christ.Again none of those examples apply to me or even to the people I have in mind.
I think you should stop brushing your teeth because you are getting in the way of the very natural consequences of eating food and having your teeth rot by the age of 40. Now of course I am just being humorous but I can think of 100 modern conveniences that apply in the same way. I am just saying that the Church could have a different teaching if it chose to as does the Orthodox Church, one that would only make more distinctions not less and apply to more people not less.
Nothing is preposterous about self control or family planning. It is preposterous that my wife and I cannot under catholic thinking use contraceptives to cease having children after already having and raising a family. To imply that enjoying sexual union in marriage is a lack of self control is disingenuous, ignorant and denies the God given beauty of sexual union when it is an act of mutual love between married people.What is preposterous about self control or natural family planning? Here, Pope Paul VI explains the Church’s position about artificial birth control:
w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html
It was not just written for Catholics but for all men of good will.
Ed
Yes, but you’re holding back. True marital love is an act of self-sacrifice, of giving your whole self. By putting a barrier between you and your wife, you are saying “You can have me, but not all of me.” You are saying “I really love you, but I don’t like the strings attached.”Nothing is preposterous about self control or family planning. It is preposterous that my wife and I cannot under catholic thinking use contraceptives to cease having children after already having and raising a family. To imply that enjoying sexual union in marriage is a lack of self control is disingenuous, ignorant and denies the God given beauty of sexual union when it is an act of mutual love between married people.
I am pretty sure that the Pope isn’t doing what you seem to thinl he is doing.I do understand your preference to follow the Church’s teaching on this subject which is why it is so heartening to hear that the Pope and others may be listening with humility to the body of Christ and making better and more refined distinctions as a result of humility. I am very, very, curious to see what comes of all of this.
The 2000 years of tradition regarding contraception is an exaggeration in my mind. Reliable and safe contraception is a relatively new phenomenon.
I think it is very ugly how you are narrowly defining self giving and self sacrifice to include only one manifestation. Especially so seeing as how we already have children and our age creates real risks not only for my wife but for any potential child. It would be cruel and unjust to be open to new life at this juncture. The procreative aspect of our bodies is frustrated by age, not by our sexual union.Yes, but you’re holding back. True marital love is an act of self-sacrifice, of giving your whole self. By putting a barrier between you and your wife, you are saying “You can have me, but not all of me.” You are saying “I really love you, but I don’t like the strings attached.” That is not remotely what we are saying to one another. I am sorry you cannot see any other options but your characterization is inaccurate.
Marital love mirrors the self-giving love of the Holy Trinity. The marital embrace cannot be an accurate mirror of this love if the procreative, or the unitive, aspects are frustrated. Only a total commitment to self-sacrifice does justice to that reflection of love.
As it has been said, you could abstain from sex and thereby not conceive any more children. Or you could use conservative NFP and abstain on your wife’s fertile cycles. It would only be until menopause, anyway. But you would rather not do that. Hey, I get it, everyone else is doing it, and you’re not Catholic anyway. It would be totally uncool for us to suggest you are doing it wrong.
Your post doesn’t make a lot of sense and I think you’re being purposefully obtuse, trolling, or have really poor reading comprehension skills.Nothing is preposterous about self control or family planning. It is preposterous that my wife and I cannot under catholic thinking use contraceptives to cease having children after already having and raising a family. To imply that enjoying sexual union in marriage is a lack of self control is disingenuous, ignorant and denies the God given beauty of sexual union when it is an act of mutual love between married people.
This may come as a shock to you, but you don’t speak for God. He gave you absolutely NO authority to speak in His Name.Assuming laziness as the only possible motive just shows that you have not really understood many peoples position. A better reason would be to ensure that another pregnancy did not come about, a pregnancy that goes against the wishes of the parents and God.
I agree that the Holy Spirit can speak through the laity which is why it is so very refreshing to hear the Pope listening to us. At the same time I trust him to weed out the errors also. It is just very very good to be heard.
Where the Pope is taking Catholicism? The Church isn’t the pope’s to take. It is a common Protestant error to assume that the pope is like some autocrstic Caesar-king that can do whatever he wants. The reality is that the pope is extremely limited in where he can “take” the Church because truth is truth and the pope is bound to that reality. In the case of contraception, Humanae Vitae is what the Church teaches no matter how well you may appreciate that fact.I think it is very ugly how you are narrowly defining self giving and self sacrifice to include only one manifestation. Especially so seeing as how we already have children and our age creates real risks not only for my wife but for any potential child. It would be cruel and unjust to be open to new life at this juncture. The procreative aspect of our bodies is frustrated by age, not by our sexual union.
I can respect that you don’t see any other options and that you align with the Catholic Church on this matter. am not trying to get you or anyone to change their position. I simply cannot see the logic in it other than to safeguard against the worst possible scenario for some segment of the population. The Catholic teaching on this is a broadsword when a scalpel is needed.
There is no need to resort to low level sarcasm and insult when tying to make a case for God and for truth. I see your position and I wont even say that it is universal wrong. I can see how good sincere Christians could come to that position. I see the Eastern Orthodox Church as an example of another approach for leading people to God that takes what I see as a more compassionate approach on contraception and communion and on divorce and remarriage and allows for reception of the Eucharist in many areas where the Catholic Church does not. As someone who equally respects both of these great religious traditions (lays at their feet even) these differences are particularly interesting and I see Jesus working in both approaches through the Eucharist, even when dogmatically there seem to be irreconcilable differences.
Perhaps the truth of Christ and salvation is bigger than any system while working profoundly within many? Maybe the great schism of east and west was not a tragedy but a flowering of diversity? At any rate I am looking forward to seeing wherever the Pope is taking Catholicism even in if there is no change of course.
I am pretty sure that when a prelate talks about schism, he isn’t using the term lightly.Translation may not be totally accurate. We should avoid picking the statement apart too much. I notice the word “schism” is not used in the way we normally us it in ecclesial discussion. n Perhaps “disconnect” might be better, given the context. I sure am glad that God doesn’t not give up on me because I still sin and struggle with living a perfectly holy life, and I was taught solid morality growing up. In today’s sexually whacked out society, I do think we need to understand that most people are in for a long process of conversion. The need for mercy is great. The need for patience is equally great.
Cardinal Kasper, one that many have criticized for being too progressive has acknowledge the edge, the boundary, the limit, that is defined by doctrine. I think this sets the proper tone for this synod. Now those of the more traditional belief should acknowledge the other limit, namely, showing less mercy than God wants, and then work out what is more practical in between.
Jesus prayed for unity. I have a feeling He didn’t consider the Great Schism as an occasion for heavenly celebration.Perhaps the truth of Christ and salvation is bigger than any system while working profoundly within many? Maybe the great schism of east and west was not a tragedy but a flowering of diversity? At any rate I am looking forward to seeing wherever the Pope is taking Catholicism even in if there is no change of course.
This has not happened in my life, my own opinions have never become the dominant or only view. If anything over time I am more willing to listen and not less. I am not Catholic and I don’t share your belief that the Church leaders are always right. I am sorry if I offended you in any way. We will have to agree to disagree. God bless.This may come as a shock to you, but you don’t speak for God. He gave you absolutely NO authority to speak in His Name.
This is one of the big dangers of listening to your own opinion instead of the Church which Jesus built. Your opinion slowly becomes the dominant and only view, and eventually supersedes God’s authority.
I am aware of the Popes limitations. I think you are assuming that I am a protestant. I am not. Thank you for your replies. I have gotten the info I came for – just wanted to understand and see how people would react and respond to my thoughts and questions on the subject.Where the Pope is taking Catholicism? The Church isn’t the pope’s to take. It is a common Protestant error to assume that the pope is like some autocrstic Caesar-king that can do whatever he wants. The reality is that the pope is extremely limited in where he can “take” the Church because truth is truth and the pope is bound to that reality. In the case of contraception, Humanae Vitae is what the Church teaches no matter how well you may appreciate that fact.
I am not being purposely obtuse. I think you don’t understand where I am coming from. Again you are being rude and resorting to insult when you could just ask clarifying questions. I am sorry of I angered you, it really was not my intent. God bless you.Your post doesn’t make a lot of sense and I think you’re being purposefully obtuse, trolling, or have really poor reading comprehension skills.
Oh it most certainly has. You’ve declared in this thread alone that it is not God’s intention for you and your wife to have anymore children. That is presumption on your part. You are stating God’s will, when you have no authority to speak in His name.This has not happened in my life, my own opinions have never become the dominant or only view. If anything over time I am more willing to listen and not less. I am not Catholic and I don’t share your belief that the Church leaders are always right. I am sorry if I offended you in any way. We will have to agree to disagree. God bless.
Remember, it was the masses that called for Barabbas.II think the hierarchy should listen to Christ speaking through the masses…