Want to join the Knights of Columbus, but not sure if this will be an issue?

[Xantippe]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“However, what I think is that I need to keep my home a peaceful one for the sake of my daughter.”

Religion isn’t the only controversial issue in your home, though, is it? From what you’ve written before, there’s a general lack of respect, lack of cooperation, and lack of peace. From your other thread, it didn’t sound like you count in your home.

I agree that it makes most sense not to start with the marriage convalidation/radical sanation, but to first work on her mental health and your relationship. If her mental health and your relationship improve (and I expect they are pretty closely related), everything else may fall into place very easily. But if her mental health and your relationship do not improve, I don’t think you are going to succeed in having a peaceful home for your daughter.

That said, your wife is such a new mother that it would not surprise me if there substantial improvements in the next two or three years just from your daughter getting bigger and less high-maintenance.

Best wishes!

 

[JimG]

I do sympathize with your situation. I know of several similar situations involving Catholics who were virtually forced to marry outside the Church because the proposed spouse was adamantly opposed to being married in the Church, even though it would not involve the non-Catholic party converting.

It is discouraging, because one is essentially required to reject the faith or the spouse. I can only pray that there is a good resolution for you.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“However, what I think is that I need to keep my home a peaceful one for the sake of my daughter.”

Religion isn’t the only controversial issue in your home, though, is it? From what you’ve written before, there’s a general lack of respect, lack of cooperation, and lack of peace. From your other thread, it didn’t sound like you count in your home.

I agree that it makes most sense not to start with the marriage convalidation/radical sanation, but to first work on her mental health and your relationship. If her mental health and your relationship improve (and I expect they are pretty closely related), everything else may fall into place very easily. But if her mental health and your relationship do not improve, I don’t think you are going to succeed in having a peaceful home for your daughter.

That said, your wife is such a new mother that it would not surprise me if there substantial improvements in the next two or three years just from your daughter getting bigger and less high-maintenance.

Best wishes!

That is very possible, yes, but in two to three years, her illness can be much worse, which can cause her mental health issues to continue where they are or get worse.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I do sympathize with your situation. I know of several similar situations involving Catholics who were virtually forced to marry outside the Church because the proposed spouse was adamantly opposed to being married in the Church, even though it would not involve the non-Catholic party converting.

It is discouraging, because one is essentially required to reject the faith or the spouse. I can only pray that there is a good resolution for you.

Me too, me too.

 

[SED]

I am only saying I don’t care because I am frustrated to the max with this whole situation and wished that it would just end.

Oh ok, try not to give up hope. I can understand your frustration. Wish I had a simple answer or advice. Best thing I can think of is just take it slow, be patient, and continue to form your faith, and to learn about the catholic faith. Its a continual process.

BTW: I was married for over 20 years(to a catholic wife) before I finally gave myself up to God and converted. It can happen and I am so happy I did it. .

 

[Elizium23]

Your faith and your marriage are in serious trouble right now, and this is not the time for you to be taking on new responsibility such as joining the Knights. Membership in the Order is for life; you can stop paying your dues but you would still be a Brother Knight and bound to, among other things, secrecy regarding your initiation degree ceremonies. What would your girlfriend think of secrets held by you regarding these degrees? She already doesn’t respect your faith much, if at all. I doubt she will gain respect by you joining and going off to flip pancakes or collect money to give to the intellectually disabled.

I suggest that you continue meeting with your priest. First resolve your own issues regarding your relationship with God and His Church. During this time you should come to a conclusion about what to do with your girlfriend. It may be that you will need to separate from her, and this will not be difficult because your marriage is not valid, a civil divorce will be the only thing needed. But this is a serious step because divorces can be sinful. Consult with your priest in all things. Do it prayerfully. You will be in my prayers as well.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Your faith and your marriage are in serious trouble right now, and this is not the time for you to be taking on new responsibility such as joining the Knights. Membership in the Order is for life; you can stop paying your dues but you would still be a Brother Knight and bound to, among other things, secrecy regarding your initiation degree ceremonies. What would your girlfriend think of secrets held by you regarding these degrees? She already doesn’t respect your faith much, if at all. I doubt she will gain respect by you joining and going off to flip pancakes or collect money to give to the intellectually disabled.

I suggest that you continue meeting with your priest. First resolve your own issues regarding your relationship with God and His Church. During this time you should come to a conclusion about what to do with your girlfriend. It may be that you will need to separate from her, and this will not be difficult because your marriage is not valid, a civil divorce will be the only thing needed. But this is a serious step because divorces can be sinful. Consult with your priest in all things. Do it prayerfully. You will be in my prayers as well.

Again, she is my wife, my priest has even called her that, so please, stop being disrespectful and call her my wife.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Hi lonegreywolf20,

Does your wife have any problem with you going to church by yourself?

If she doesn’t, maybe you could join some/one of the men’s groups there, like The Holy Name Society, for example. My Dad was a member at his parish. He helped to usher at Mass, for example.

The ushers help to greet people and to seat them at Mass, and then they help with the collection at offertory time. He had a great time doing it.

At one of the parishes I was at, the Holy Name Society also held parish fund-raisers and would also take turns having a coffee and donuts “meet and greet” after Mass.

Anyway, you get the point, but maybe there is something else that you can do if the KoC isn’t a possibility for you right now.

Don’t give up, my friend.

I will continue to keep you and your dear family in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[SerraSemper]

Again, she is my wife, my priest has even called her that, so please, stop being disrespectful and call her my wife.

Your priest is being kind in saying she is your wife. She IS your wife in the sight of the State. She IS NOT your wife in the eyes of God or the Catholic Church.

It seems to me you may not understand what is involved with a radical sanation. In a radical sanation, you give your bishop a copy of your marriage certificate and your baptismal certificate and fill out a form. IF he approves, he “sanates” your marriage (making it valid retroactive to the date of your civil law marriage), and will send you word to that effect. You don’t do anything, and you don’t show up for any kind of ceremony. I don’t see why your civil law wife would care because she thinks you’re in a valid marriage, so a bishop looking over paperwork and agreeing that your marriage can by dispensation made real shouldn’t be a big deal to her. Literally, you have to do almost nothing to get married by radical sanation in your situation. Again, there is no ceremony.

A convalidation, which is the normal route for people who don’t have a civil law spouse dead set against it, is the wedding ceremony and the two people take the wedding vows and get married. Their marriage dates from the convalidation marriage ceremony (which can be intimate and private with just a priest and two witnesses in a rectory or church). The radical sanation is retroactive and dates from the civil law wedding.

 

[1ke]

As I said earlier, my wife would see that as betrayal, whether or not I told her.

Her wishes are that I do not conform to man’s rules, when it comes to religion.

Then you have a really big decision to make. She is asking that you put your soul in grave danger. That is your choice, but in my opinion nothing is worth separating myself from Christ and his Church.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Hi lonegreywolf20,

Does your wife have any problem with you going to church by yourself?

If she doesn’t, maybe you could join some/one of the men’s groups there, like The Holy Name Society, for example. My Dad was a member at his parish. He helped to usher at Mass, for example.

The ushers help to greet people and to seat them at Mass, and then they help with the collection at offertory time. He had a great time doing it.

At one of the parishes I was at, the Holy Name Society also held parish fund-raisers and would also take turns having a coffee and donuts “meet and greet” after Mass.

Anyway, you get the point, but maybe there is something else that you can do if the KoC isn’t a possibility for you right now.

Don’t give up, my friend.

I will continue to keep you and your dear family in my thoughts and prayers.

I attend church with my MIL currently.

My grandfather was an usher for over 25 years at the Catholic church in the town where I was raised. He was captain of the ushers for many years too. So, I am familiar with ushers in a Catholic church.

Thank you for your encouragement.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Can someone show me where, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition, it states that a marriage is required to be performed by a priest in a Catholic church for it to be recognized by God?

 

[Usige]

Can someone show me where, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition, it states that a marriage is required to be performed by a priest in a Catholic church for it to be recognized by God?

Here are the sections of the Catechism.

1630 The priest (or deacon) who assists at the celebration of a marriage receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the blessing of the Church. The presence of the Church’s minister (and also of the witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that marriage is an ecclesial reality.

1631 This is the reason why the Church normally requires that the faithful contract marriage according to the ecclesiastical form. Several reasons converge to explain this requirement:

• Sacramental marriage is a liturgical act. It is therefore appropriate that it should be celebrated in the public liturgy of the Church;
• Marriage introduces one into an ecclesial order, and creates rights and duties in the Church between the spouses and towards their children;
• Since marriage is a state of life in the Church, certainty about it is necessary (hence the obligation to have witnesses);
• The public character of the consent protects the “I do” once given and helps the spouses remain faithful to it.

Here are the relevant parts of canon law. In your case you would have required 2 dispensations. First to marry outside of the faith and second to be dispensed from canonical form (referred to as ecclesiastical form above).

**Canon 1108.1 **Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local Ordinary or parish priest or of the priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who, in the presence of two witnesses, assists, in accordance however with the rules set out in the following canons, and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112.1, 1116 and 1127.2-3.

**Canon 1124 **Without the express permission of the competent authority, marriage is prohibited between two baptised persons, one of whom was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act, the other of whom belongs to a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the catholic Church.

**Canon 1125 **The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

Canon 1125.1 the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;

**Canon 1125.2 **the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party.

**Canon 1125.3 **both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.

**Canon 1127.2 **If there are grave difficulties in the way of observing the canonical form, the local Ordinary of the catholic party has the right to dispense from it in individual cases, having however consulted the Ordinary of the place of the celebration of the marriage; for validity, however, some public form of celebration is required. It is for the Episcopal Conference to establish norms whereby this dispensation may be granted in a uniform manner.

Canon 1108.1 establishes that for a marriage to be valid a Catholics must be married in the Catholic form, unless they receive dispensation from their Bishop (can 1127.2). Canons 1124 and 1125 disallow marriage between a catholic and non-catholic unless the provisions in 1125.1-3 are adhered to.

Remember in the Catholic Church we don’t just have the Bible but also Tradition and the Magisterial teachings of the Church. We are bound in obedience to the Church including the laws She sets forth.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Here are the sections of the Catechism.

Here are the relevant parts of canon law. In your case you would have required 2 dispensations. First to marry outside of the faith and second to be dispensed from canonical form (referred to as ecclesiastical form above).

Canon 1108.1 establishes that for a marriage to be valid a Catholics must be married in the Catholic form, unless they receive dispensation from their Bishop (can 1127.2). Canons 1124 and 1125 disallow marriage between a catholic and non-catholic unless the provisions in 1125.1-3 are adhered to.

Remember in the Catholic Church we don’t just have the Bible but also Tradition and the Magisterial teachings of the Church. We are bound in obedience to the Church including the laws She sets forth.

That never really answered my question though.

Can you show me where it states that in order for God to see the marriage as valid it must be done in the Catholic church?

I see where has to be done in the church for the Catholic church to recognize it, but I do not see where it states that God only sees it as valid by those rules.

 

[Usige]

That never really answered my question though.

Can you show me where it states that in order for God to see the marriage as valid it must be done in the Catholic church?

I see where has to be done in the church for the Catholic church to recognize it, but I do not see where it states that God only sees it as valid by those rules.

Canon 1108 is what sates it. If you are Catholic and do not receive the dispensations mentioned then it is invalid (i.e did not happen). Since Christ gave the Church the power to bind and loose (Matthew 18:18) then if the Church declares that it is invalid then it is not valid in Heaven or on Earth.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Canon 1108 is what sates it. If you are Catholic and do not receive the dispensations mentioned then it is invalid (i.e did not happen). Since Christ gave the Church the power to bind and loose (Matthew 18:18) then if the Church declares that it is invalid then it is not valid in Heaven or on Earth.

I did read that, but again, that is so that it is valid in the church’s eyes. It says nothing about God.

I am going to end the thread here though. All it is doing is causing me confusion and nothing more. I am going to listen to my priest whom I have talked with and he is fully aware of the situation. He has told me that while the church doesn’t recognize my marriage, God does as we made a covenant before God.

Since he is my spiritual adviser, I am going to listen to him. It was a mistake to come here, and even my priest said not to listen to those on the internet. They may mean well, but generally they lead one into more confusion.

Thank you for all the responses.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I wanted to add this as well.

I have spoken to my wife again and she says she is not 100% against the idea of convalidation, but that she wants me to understand that it may be years down the road before she consents to it if it ever does happen. That I am not to push (which I haven’t) and to continue to pray about it.

 

[Elizium23]

The Church is God’s representative on Earth. As has been pointed out, Jesus left Peter with the keys of the kingdom, the power to bind and loose. The Church has bound marriage to a specific canonical form for her members. Now, non-Catholics are not bound to canonical form. If two non-Catholics marry before a Justice of the Peace, then that is a valid marriage. If two baptized non-Catholic Christians marry each other, that is a valid, sacramental marriage. The difference is that non-Catholics are not subject to the laws of the Church. How could they be?

Now we can all see you have a faith crisis and problems with authority on your hands. You do not believe that Jesus entrusted the keys of authority to Peter. You do not believe that the Church has the authority to regulate marriage. You love this woman more than you love the sacraments or God. You do not seem to be head of household here, the woman is making the orders and leading you down a path that is undesirable perhaps for even yourself.

You will not resolve your relationship problems between yourself and the woman until you resolve your relationship with Jesus and God and His Church. So go about examining your conscience, make a frequent confession, and take the advice given to you by your priest.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

The Church is God’s representative on Earth. As has been pointed out, Jesus left Peter with the keys of the kingdom, the power to bind and loose. The Church has bound marriage to a specific canonical form for her members. Now, non-Catholics are not bound to canonical form. If two non-Catholics marry before a Justice of the Peace, then that is a valid marriage. If two baptized non-Catholic Christians marry each other, that is a valid, sacramental marriage. The difference is that non-Catholics are not subject to the laws of the Church. How could they be?

Now we can all see you have a faith crisis and problems with authority on your hands. You do not believe that Jesus entrusted the keys of authority to Peter. You do not believe that the Church has the authority to regulate marriage. You love this woman more than you love the sacraments or God. You do not seem to be head of household here, the woman is making the orders and leading you down a path that is undesirable perhaps for even yourself.

You will not resolve your relationship problems between yourself and the woman until you resolve your relationship with Jesus and God and His Church. So go about examining your conscience, make a frequent confession, and take the advice given to you by your priest.

As I said, I’m going to listen to my priest, who is my spiritual adviser. He says I am fine, then I will listen to him, since he is after all a priest and has more authority than you to say whether I am fine or not.

 

[Usige]

As I said, I’m going to listen to my priest, who is my spiritual adviser. He says I am fine, then I will listen to him, since he is after all a priest and has more authority than you to say whether I am fine or not.

Unfortunately in this case your priest does not have the authority you believe he does. Only your Bishop can dispense you from canonical form or a mixed marriage. It is the same reason that only your Bishop can provide a radical sanation. A radical sanation is essentially a retroactive dispensation back to the time of the original wedding vows. A convalidation on the other hand is contracting marriage anew with essentially a new date of marriage. A sanation recognizes the marriage from the beginning as opposed to the date of the convalidation.

It is important to note that the Church recognizes all valid marriages even of non-Christians. If the Church does not recognize a marriage then it is because it is invalid (i.e did not happen). One cannot be in a covenant marriage that the Church does not recognize.