Want to join the Knights of Columbus, but not sure if this will be an issue?

[Xantippe]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“Can someone show me where, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition, it states that a marriage is required to be performed by a priest in a Catholic church for it to be recognized by God?”

That is actually not necessary. It’s not the priest who marries the couple and bestows the sacrament on them–it is the couple that bestows the sacrament on each other. Catholics who are living in an area with no priest in a reasonable distance are able to marry, just as it’s possible to perform baptism even without a priest. In some ways, we are actually less clerical than Protestants.

However, the question of whether a marriage has or has not occurred is a big deal, and it’s worthwhile to dot all our is and cross all our ts to make sure that a couple attempts marriage freely and with full knowledge of what marriage requires and the capability to keep those vows. Hence, we Catholics are very bureaucratic about marriage (6 month cooling off period, mandatory premarital counseling, no wedding during pregnancy, etc.), because marriage is really important.

 

[Xantippe]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“As I said, I’m going to listen to my priest, who is my spiritual adviser. He says I am fine, then I will listen to him, since he is after all a priest and has more authority than you to say whether I am fine or not.”

You might want to ask your priest, what would the bishop say about my situation? I think you will get a somewhat different answer. Also, would he preach this publicly? If your priest wouldn’t be willing to explain his views publicly in front of your bishop, I wouldn’t put a lot of credit in those views.

It’s good to hear that your wife is somewhat open to convalidation in future.

 

[Elizium23]

So he’s going to listen to his priest. That’s great. Since the pastor is the immediate authority in spiritual matters, we at CAF always recommend that most people defer to the direction of their pastor, who should be obeyed in all things but sin. Far be it from me to question the competence or motives of his pastor. But I do have to wonder about the situation. The OP has raised a whole hornet’s nest worth of red flags just in a few posts. I have addressed those points and I needn’t go into more detail about them. So does the pastor know the whole story? “He says I’m fine”, are you really fine if you’re publicly doubting the authority of the Church, and rethinking your own decision to rejoin her? Does the pastor know the whole story here? Are we just being trolled for fun? A lot of buttons have been pushed, that is for certain.

Let’s go back to the original question. I already answered it, but I would like to amplify it some. No Knight can be stripped of membership unless his bishop has made a determination that he is not in good standing with the Church. The Supreme Council of the Order has summarily refused to strip membership rights from pro-abortion politicians and other obstinate sinners without word from their ordinaries. At first this was hard for me to believe, but then I realized it is the only sensible course. It is not up to the Order’s leadership to say who is, and isn’t, Catholic. That is the bishop’s call alone.

Now, getting to join a council may be another matter. In general, a council will have a rigorous screening process put up in order to recruit men of the proper caliber. I think that a good screening process would find out one’s marriage status and simply disallow that man from making his First Degree. This is well within the rights of a council to do so. Now if that man shops around until he finds a council willing to admit him, then I guess that is a problem for him and his new council.

I know at least two brother Knights who were in irregular marriage situations. This did not preclude them from being active volunteers and good men, but I doubt I could say that their brothers or the leadership were enthusiastic about their state of life.

But the OP presents us with larger problems. A crisis of faith and living with a woman hostile to it. I certainly would not recommend pursuing membership in anything right now. All I would recommend is frequent confession, if he is disposed, and intensive spiritual direction with an objective to rectify the irregular marriage as soon as humanly possible. There are three possibilities on the table for the OP. Civil divorce, live as brother and sister, or radical sanation. He has told us that the latter two are out of the question so he had better seriously consider the former one.

Oh, come to think of it, there is one more option. Leave the Church until his marriage ends. That probably won’t take long. Sure, he might go to Hell in the meantime, but he seems willing to take that chance.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

So he’s going to listen to his priest. That’s great. Since the pastor is the immediate authority in spiritual matters, we at CAF always recommend that most people defer to the direction of their pastor, who should be obeyed in all things but sin. Far be it from me to question the competence or motives of his pastor. But I do have to wonder about the situation. The OP has raised a whole hornet’s nest worth of red flags just in a few posts. I have addressed those points and I needn’t go into more detail about them. So does the pastor know the whole story? “He says I’m fine”, are you really fine if you’re publicly doubting the authority of the Church, and rethinking your own decision to rejoin her? Does the pastor know the whole story here? Are we just being trolled for fun? A lot of buttons have been pushed, that is for certain.

Let’s go back to the original question. I already answered it, but I would like to amplify it some. No Knight can be stripped of membership unless his bishop has made a determination that he is not in good standing with the Church. The Supreme Council of the Order has summarily refused to strip membership rights from pro-abortion politicians and other obstinate sinners without word from their ordinaries. At first this was hard for me to believe, but then I realized it is the only sensible course. It is not up to the Order’s leadership to say who is, and isn’t, Catholic. That is the bishop’s call alone.

Now, getting to join a council may be another matter. In general, a council will have a rigorous screening process put up in order to recruit men of the proper caliber. I think that a good screening process would find out one’s marriage status and simply disallow that man from making his First Degree. This is well within the rights of a council to do so. Now if that man shops around until he finds a council willing to admit him, then I guess that is a problem for him and his new council.

I know at least two brother Knights who were in irregular marriage situations. This did not preclude them from being active volunteers and good men, but I doubt I could say that their brothers or the leadership were enthusiastic about their state of life.

But the OP presents us with larger problems. A crisis of faith and living with a woman hostile to it. I certainly would not recommend pursuing membership in anything right now. All I would recommend is frequent confession, if he is disposed, and intensive spiritual direction with an objective to rectify the irregular marriage as soon as humanly possible. There are three possibilities on the table for the OP. Civil divorce, live as brother and sister, or radical sanation. He has told us that the latter two are out of the question so he had better seriously consider the former one.

Oh, come to think of it, there is one more option. Leave the Church until his marriage ends. That probably won’t take long. Sure, he might go to Hell in the meantime, but he seems willing to take that chance.

I am sorry that you do not understand my reasonings behind not going for radical sannation. I am sorry that it seems you are so eager to throw out the word divorce, to which I am dead set against and am fighting for my marriage. It may be crummy right now, but I am going on faith that it will get better. I am also sorry that I am against anything that will make my marriage worse and that includes living as brother and sister.

Do you not realize that I am trying to save my marriage? That if I do anything that you have suggested will make matters worse? She doesn’t understand the reasonings behind anything that you have said. To her they are rules of men, not God. So to her, who is sola scriptura, why would she think that they are a good thing? She will not and it will only drive her further away from the Catholic church and from me.

I am not going to do anything that drives a further wedge in between us and I am sure that God understands why I am doing what I am doing. I have not done anything first without prayer to God.

I also have a daughter to think about which is another reason why I am fighting for my marriage, for her sake as I am the product of a divorced home, as is my wife. I do not want my daughter growing up in one.

I thank you all for your concern, but this is something that God, me and my wife have to work out. I will stay in contact with my priest during this whole thing as well. I am going to work on my marriage first and foremost before thinking of joining the KofC. Once my marriage is on steadier ground, I can then look to join. Steadier ground also meaning that we have gone through convalidation as that is my goal.

 

[Catolico65]

lonegreywolf20

I wouldn’t despair as I know your heart is in the right place and certainly wouldn’t entertain thoughts of leaving the CC. I would definitely talk with a priest but you may have to be resigned to the fact that the KoC is not for you. Not to worry there are many other Catholic organizations that would be a good fit for a conscientious person like yourself who is intent on doing right. I would recommend looking at Catholic Relief Services or Catholic Social Services. Also, while fraternal organizations can be good, directly helping the poor is very satisfying as well and no doubt you would make many lasting friends who has similar ideals as you.

Finally, I’m in a similar situation as yourself who married a protestant and am praying for my marriage to improve as well. We have three daughters. God bless brother.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

lonegreywolf20

I wouldn’t despair as I know your heart is in the right place and certainly wouldn’t entertain thoughts of leaving the CC. I would definitely talk with a priest but you may have to be resigned to the fact that the KoC is not for you. Not to worry there are many other Catholic organizations that would be a good fit for a conscientious person like yourself who is intent on doing right. I would recommend looking at Catholic Relief Services or Catholic Social Services. Also, while fraternal organizations can be good, directly helping the poor is very satisfying as well and no doubt you would make many lasting friends who has similar ideals as you.

Finally, I’m in a similar situation as yourself who married a protestant and am praying for my marriage to improve as well. We have three daughters. God bless brother.

Thank you very much for the reply and for understanding my position.

I said that I was leaving the CC out of frustration more than anything. I am not leaving the church. It is my utmost prayer that my wife joins me at mass as a Catholic and we are a Catholic family. She has been baptized Catholic, as well as been through first communion. Her feelings are that she was put into the Catholic church without her decision in the matter as she was just an infant when she was baptized. She had no choice in the matter are her words. I can understand where she is coming from as I too had those thoughts.

I will look into both Catholic Relief Services as well as Catholic Social Services. If there is a place for someone with emergency medical skills (I used to work as an EMT and still am a certified EMT in good standing) that is where I would try to migrate to.

I too believe my heart is in the right place, even if others do not.

 

[Catolico65]

Thank you very much for the reply and for understanding my position.

I said that I was leaving the CC out of frustration more than anything. I am not leaving the church. It is my utmost prayer that my wife joins me at mass as a Catholic and we are a Catholic family. She has been baptized Catholic, as well as been through first communion. Her feelings are that she was put into the Catholic church without her decision in the matter as she was just an infant when she was baptized. She had no choice in the matter are her words. I can understand where she is coming from as I too had those thoughts.

I will look into both Catholic Relief Services as well as Catholic Social Services. If there is a place for someone with emergency medical skills (I used to work as an EMT and still am a certified EMT in good standing) that is where I would try to migrate to.

I too believe my heart is in the right place, even if others do not.

I’m glad I could offer positive advice. Regarding your EMT skills, you might want to network with Christian medical associations that go on mission trips once or twice a year. God bless.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I’m glad I could offer positive advice. Regarding your EMT skills, you might want to network with Christian medical associations that go on mission trips once or twice a year. God bless.

I will do that. Thank you!

 

[MJJean]

Have you tried presenting the Radical Sanation as simply paperwork? In truth, it really is paperwork. Baptism certificate, marriage certificate, a 1 or 2 page form, and that’s it. If you aren’t willing to have a Radical Sanation without your wife knowing, then convince her it is merely a clerical process so that the Church can add your marriage to the record and recognize it.

I do understand how you feel about the terms marriage and husband and wife. I married a non-practicing Baptized Catholic over 11 years ago after I was divorced from a previous marriage. It was no big deal to us for a decade. No question in our minds that we were a married couple.

Then my husband returned to the Church and I decided to convert. So, now we have to wait on an annulment and then have our marriage convalidated. I applied for annulment this past June and it could be as much as another year before a determination is made. Then we have to make arrangements for a convalidation, my first Reconciliation, First Communion, and Confirmation. Basically, my reception into the Church is delayed indefinitely. Annulments happen in their own sweet time. It drives me nuts. On the one hand, we have been validly legally married for 11 years. On the other hand, our marriage is not valid in the eyes of God or the Church. I can’t wait until we can convalidate and be validly married on all fronts!

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Have you tried presenting the Radical Sanation as simply paperwork? In truth, it really is paperwork. Baptism certificate, marriage certificate, a 1 or 2 page form, and that’s it. If you aren’t willing to have a Radical Sanation without your wife knowing, then convince her it is merely a clerical process so that the Church can add your marriage to the record and recognize it.

I have and she still will not go for it. It’s still “following man’s rules” and nothing else to her.

I am going to be patient and wait until she is ready. I will continue to pray, have hope and faith.

 

[Xantippe]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“I have and she still will not go for it. It’s still “following man’s rules” and nothing else to her.”

So is getting a marriage license, for that matter.

With all due respect, your wife doesn’t sound like a real joy to be around, and I’d love to hear her exegesis of Ephesians 5:22-33. She obviously has some redeeming qualities (she’s OK with you going to Mass, she’s OK with you joining the Knights, she would go to marriage counseling if you found an in-person one), but the general impression you give in your posts of your wife is of amazing pigheadedness. Has she always been like this?

 

[MJJean]

I have and she still will not go for it. It’s still “following man’s rules” and nothing else to her.

I am going to be patient and wait until she is ready. I will continue to pray, have hope and faith.

By marrying you in a ceremony she was “following mans rules”. By registering the birth of your child with the state she was “following mans rules”. Really, most of what we do is directed by laws written by man.

If a radical Sanation is merely following mans rules and nothing else to her, then why does she care if you do it? To her, it’s meaningless. To you, it’s peace of mind and a religious obligation to have a validated marriage.

I don’t think her real problem is “following mans rules”. I think this may be a control thing. Its a bit unnerving when a spouse reverts to their faith, especially if it is a different faith. Maybe she fears losing you to the Church and is asserting her ownership, so to speak. Whatever it is, she is blatantly disregarding your spiritual well being and refusing to allow you to do what your conscience dictates.

I’d almost understand if it was a requirement that she participate somehow, but its totally unreasonable that she refuse to allow you to do some simple paperwork to have your faith recognize your marriage.

Personally, if it were me and my husband was being that unreasonable and disrespectful of my feelings, beliefs, and obligations to my faith I would flat out tell him this is an important matter, its no skin off his nose and he doesn’t have to actually do anything, and I would inform him (not ask, not discuss, inform ) that I am going to apply for the Radical Sanation.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

lonegreywolf20 said:

“I have and she still will not go for it. It’s still “following man’s rules” and nothing else to her.”

So is getting a marriage license, for that matter.

With all due respect, your wife doesn’t sound like a real joy to be around, and I’d love to hear her exegesis of Ephesians 5:22-33. She obviously has some redeeming qualities (she’s OK with you going to Mass, she’s OK with you joining the Knights, she would go to marriage counseling if you found an in-person one), but the general impression you give in your posts of your wife is of amazing pigheadedness. Has she always been like this?

The difference between the two man’s rules is that the one is following the laws of the land as we’re told to do, while the other is to please man in a church setting where we’re only to follow God’s rules and please him. You have to remember, she doesn’t put much stock in all the rules that the Catholic church has, and does not believe that they came from God.

No, no she hasn’t always been this way. As she has “grown closer” to the Lord, she has gotten a bit more against man’s rules in the Catholic church.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Personally, if it were me and my husband was being that unreasonable and disrespectful of my feelings, beliefs, and obligations to my faith I would flat out tell him this is an important matter, its no skin off his nose and he doesn’t have to actually do anything, and I would inform him (not ask, not discuss, inform ) that I am going to apply for the Radical Sanation.

This would be my problem in thought though, because I fully believe that I would be betraying her if I did.

I have been doing some praying and I do not believe that God wants me to go the route of radical sanation. I get the feeling that he wants me to have patience and to rely on him to work this out.

Our anniversary is this Wednesday. We’ll be married for four years on that day.

 

[MJJean]

This would be my problem in thought though, because I fully believe that I would be betraying her if I did.

I have been doing some praying and I do not believe that God wants me to go the route of radical sanation. I get the feeling that he wants me to have patience and to rely on him to work this out.

Our anniversary is this Wednesday. We’ll be married for four years on that day.

Well, we all have our methods. I am a bit more straightforward and firm than you are. If you believe that she will eventually come around and that Sanation would damage an already shaky marriage I can see your point.

I do have to ask, though, are you sure it’s God who wants you to wait for a convalidation or at least permission to Radically Sanate or is it fear of your wife? She does seem a bit…tyrannical. I know that word can seem a bit much, but I think that free practice of faith is a natural right all people have from birth to death. Only a tyrant would inhibit that religious freedom.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Well, we all have our methods. I am a bit more straightforward and firm than you are. If you believe that she will eventually come around and that Sanation would damage an already shaky marriage I can see your point.

I do have to ask, though, are you sure it’s God who wants you to wait for a convalidation or at least permission to Radically Sanate or is it fear of your wife? She does seem a bit…tyrannical. I know that word can seem a bit much, but I think that free practice of faith is a natural right all people have from birth to death. Only a tyrant would inhibit that religious freedom.

I am sure because it came with a sense of peace that I cannot deny.

 

[Elizium23]

The Church is a government just like any other. By virtue of your birth you live in the USA and are subject to its rules, while by virtue of your baptism you are a subject of the Catholic Church and are subject to her rules. There is no difference at all. By disregarding the rules of the USA and moving in together without a civil marriage, you would not get tax breaks or the other legal benefits of marriage. By disregarding the rules of the Church and failing to observe canonical form, you lose the benefits of the Church, which include reception of the Eucharist and other sacraments. Now I agree with Xantippe when he says that your woman seems terribly pigheaded by the way you have described her. But you have demonstrated that you love her more than you love God or eternal life. And she has demonstrated that she cares little for what matters to you. If saving your marriage is the only thing that matters to you, then put your money where your mouth is and leave the Church behind. She has no benefits for you if you will defer to the woman when it comes to obedience. I hate to ask what she thinks of contraception and NFP and the HHS mandate.

Frankly to me it sounds like her newfound softness on convalidation is just telling you what you want to hear, or trying to keep the peace. It is certainly a temptation for us with loved ones to bend the truth a little bit if it means so much to them. If I were in that situation, I would be negotiating a game plan and a timeline for how you can come to an agreement or part ways. Seeking a radical sanation seems bad advice if the marriage is not even tenable. If I were a bishop and presented with these facts, I would hesitate to grant it. Ask her how she can love you and still be leading you into Hell with each day you spend outside a state of grace. Part of a good relationship is being able to respect the other person’s relationships as well. Your relationship with God is injured at the present time and she’s not helping any. You are doing your best to heal it and she is holding you back.

I understand why your priorities are reversed because I once had the same problem. I sympathize and I truly apologize for being so harsh in this forum. It is easy for us to anonymously berate people to heart’s content when they come seeking honest help. In my own twisted way, I am looking out for your best interests. I am playing, how would I put it, not the Devil’s Advocate, but Defender of the Faith, because in the end when all our earthly relationships pass away we will only have Heaven or Hell and the decisions are made every single day. I am fervently praying that you make the right ones.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

The Church is a government just like any other. By virtue of your birth you live in the USA and are subject to its rules, while by virtue of your baptism you are a subject of the Catholic Church and are subject to her rules. There is no difference at all. By disregarding the rules of the USA and moving in together without a civil marriage, you would not get tax breaks or the other legal benefits of marriage. By disregarding the rules of the Church and failing to observe canonical form, you lose the benefits of the Church, which include reception of the Eucharist and other sacraments. Now I agree with Xantippe when he says that your woman seems terribly pigheaded by the way you have described her. But you have demonstrated that you love her more than you love God or eternal life. And she has demonstrated that she cares little for what matters to you. If saving your marriage is the only thing that matters to you, then put your money where your mouth is and leave the Church behind. She has no benefits for you if you will defer to the woman when it comes to obedience. I hate to ask what she thinks of contraception and NFP and the HHS mandate.

I will not leave the church behind and I am going to ask that you no longer reply in my thread.

So please, stop replying to me.

 

[Elizium23]

I will not leave the church behind and I am going to ask that you no longer reply in my thread.

So please, stop replying to me.

Well, I edited my post so I do hope you will continue to at least read the final paragraph.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Well, I edited my post so I do hope you will continue to at least read the final paragraph.

What I am doing, as someone else has so eloquently put it, respecting her faith, even though she is not respecting mine. Are we not called to love, even when we’re not loved back? I am doing the same with her faith. She may not respect mine, but I do respect hers. I am trying to love her through her faults and not make a wrong turn that will further jeopardize our marriage.

I have been told many times today, not just here the one time, that my heart is in the right place and I am on the right track