Wanting Death Penalty

[vz71]

How often does such a death occur when the individual is in solitary confinement without visits? i.e. totally isolated?

How often does the justice system we have allow this to take place?

I would agree that there are many examples, but overall ‘life in prison’ is anything but.

 

[Fairwinds]

This topic has been and is still being discussed on this forum over and over again. I have heard all possible arguments for supporting the death penalty in this age and I don’t buy any of them especially taking into consideration what the bishops have taught. I am not interested in those same arguments. But I do have some interest in understanding the mindset of people who are supposed to be pro-life but are not.

no doubt you are familiar with all arguments, including the new references, but as the forum seems to have a high turnover, teaching remains important.

I too am curious, and seek to understand why pro-life proponents ignore, much less indirectly approve, of the killings caused by a few incarcerated prisoners, all in disregard of the CCC’s instruction on the limited use of the DP.

any insights? no need to rehash old reasoning, but why are the new deaths of innocent victims caused by those convicts given so little weight – in most cases ignored in these debated? is it disbelief in the FBI and similar studies?

 

[Forkfoot]

Well so far we don’t “know” that we’ve executed anyone who was innocent, despite the allegations that have been made.

Dude. Come on.

But if this is your objection to using capital punishment then you must at the same time accept that we “know” our inaction will lead to the death of many more innocent people and that we are choosing more deaths over fewer. I’m not sure how that can be conceived of as more just.

Ender

A judicial system actively executing an innocent person is in my book far, far more unconscionable than a judicial system opting not to execute a guilty person who then kills again. There’s no way of knowing if a killer will kill again from inside prison, just like there’s no way of knowing whether he’ll find God and become a saint. Society has a duty to protect itself from dangerous people, but in my opinion it must stop short of risking executing an innocent. We’ve got to do the best we can with what we’ve got apart from that risk. There are plenty of arguments for euthanasia, but we say no, find another way.

 

[vz71]

Society has a duty to protect itself from dangerous people, but in my opinion it must stop short of risking executing an innocent. We’ve got to do the best we can with what we’ve got apart from that risk. There are plenty of arguments for euthanasia, but we say no, find another way.

Indeed.

However we do not have a system in place that allows a guarantee that society can be safe from a killer without putting the killer to death.

 

[Forkfoot]

Indeed.

However we do not have a system in place that allows a guarantee that society can be safe from a killer without putting the killer to death.

Indeed. However we also do not have a system in place that allows a guarantee that the person we’re executing is even guilty at all.

 

[westNwewaxation]

I just did a quick google search and it said less than 1% of murderers convicted of 1st-degree murder actually get executed.

So I was thinking, couldn’t the case be made that our society is already conformed to the catechism? which basically says that capital punishment should be rare/almost nonexistent?

 

[vz71]

It is the job of the governing body to protect the society.

I am open to hear whatever suggestions there are that would guarantee this and at the same time preserve the life of the criminal.

 

[vz71]

I just did a quick google search and it said less than 1% of murderers convicted of 1st-degree murder actually get executed.

So I was thinking, couldn’t the case be made that our society is already conformed to the catechism? which basically says that capital punishment should be rare/almost nonexistent?

It can. But the topic is a very emotional one.
People have a difficult time looking clearly at topics that evoke such emotion.
Moreso when there are so many headlines covering it.

 

[Ender]

Dude. Come on.

Since 1976 when the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court there have been zero executions of people who are now known to have been innocent. There are fewer than ten people about whom a reasonable case for their innocence can be made. If all of them were in fact innocent then that’s a rate of about one wrongful execution every five years. As I said before the rate of recidivist murders is about 40-50 per year.

There’s no way of knowing if a killer will kill again from inside prison …

True, but a valid expectation that he would is, according to 2267, a valid reason to execute him.

in my opinion it must stop short of risking executing an innocent.

But the innocent are at risk no matter which option we choose and clearly there is greater risk in not executing the guilty than accepting the risk of (rarely) executing the innocent.

Ender

 

[Forkfoot]

I just did a quick google search and it said less than 1% of murderers convicted of 1st-degree murder actually get executed.

So I was thinking, couldn’t the case be made that our society is already conformed to the catechism? which basically says that capital punishment should be rare/almost nonexistent?

I think it just highlights the arbitrariness with which the death penalty is applied. Two crimes, same charge, very similar cases, one gets executed, one gets life without parole. A lot of the time it seems like it has a lot more to do with the wheelings and dealings of the district attourneys behind the scenes than with the actual crimes committed.

 

[Forkfoot]

Since 1976 when the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court there have been zero executions of people who are now known to have been innocent.

Last time I brought up all the overturned convictions of capital cases after the invention of genetic evidence processing in this thread, people avoided it. I’m going to bring it up again to see if maybe someone will opt not to tap dance around it.

There are fewer than ten people about whom a reasonable case for their innocence can be made. If all of them were in fact innocent then that’s a rate of about one wrongful execution every five years.

Still far too many. And I’m sure it’s more than that.

True, but a valid expectation that he would is, according to 2267, a valid reason to execute him.

Not buying it.

But the innocent are at risk no matter which option we choose and clearly there is greater risk in not executing the guilty than accepting the risk of (rarely) executing the innocent.

Not buying it.

 

[vz71]

I think it just highlights the arbitrariness with which the death penalty is applied. Two crimes, same charge, very similar cases, one gets executed, one gets life without parole.

This has a lot to do with the evidence available.

If the DA does not believe there is sufficient evidence to use the death penalty, they won’t.

It is easier to gain a conviction for a lesser penalty then it is for the ultimate one.

 

[Forkfoot]

This has a lot to do with the evidence available.

If the DA does not believe there is sufficient evidence to use the death penalty, they won’t.

It is easier to gain a conviction for a lesser penalty then it is for the ultimate one.

And sometimes it’s a simple matter of a state not having executed anyone in a while and they opt to apply it so that people will plea bargain more often to avoid the death penalty.

 

[vz71]

And sometimes it’s a simple matter of a state not having executed anyone in a while and they opt to apply it so that people will plea bargain more often to avoid the death penalty.

Right.

The death penalty is by far the most time consuming and costly option.

 

[westNwewaxation]

So, there is a bit of psychology going on there, and a “fear of God”, so to speak. See, I see that as part of the reason for the death penalty.

 

[Fairwinds]

It is the job of the governing body to protect the society.

I am open to hear whatever suggestions there are that would guarantee this and at the same time preserve the life of the criminal.

mostly there are, however, in rare instances, the conflict between criminal rights and public safety shows its not possible, wishful thinking notwithstanding.

 

[Forkfoot]

So, there is a bit of psychology going on there, and a “fear of God”, so to speak. See, I see that as part of the reason for the death penalty.

Yeah, you can get a lot more leverage on a suspect when you can threaten to inject them with poison and they know you can and will back that threat up. But again, the problem is you can’t take that back, and you can never know for certain that they’re guilty.

 

[Fairwinds]

Right.

The death penalty is by far the most time consuming and costly option.

if that’s all you’re worried about, its easy to fix. its been fixed somewhat in the federal appeals system anyway, with limits on how writ of habeas corpus is used. trial → automatic appeal to state appellate court, discretionary review by state supreme court, one writ of HC to federal courts, assuming the issues weren’t waived in state court. one request to the USSC to review. that’s all.

 

[Fairwinds]

This has a lot to do with the evidence available.

If the DA does not believe there is sufficient evidence to use the death penalty, they won’t.

It is easier to gain a conviction for a lesser penalty then it is for the ultimate one.

sometimes the government will charge DP-eligibility and then trade the DP for life if the perp will give a full confession on the record, families like that for closure. in one murder case, we were ready to make that trade (including giving the location of the missing body), but the prosecutors totally screwed up and offered life with possibility of parole before we had a chance to make our offer. so we took it. sad to say the body is still missing.

I can say with complete honesty, I’ve never had a client who wasn’t guilty, usually of more than what the government knew about.

 

[john78]

deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

ole wikipedia has some useful information as well .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution