Wanting Death Penalty

[severus68]

I know Church forbids the death penalty, yet I find myself struggling with that teaching.

There have been some pretty terrible attacks in the past year and half. The batman shooting spree, sandy hook, the boston bombing, and now, that poor british soldier.

I feel that the death penalty should be applied to the perpetrators of 3/4 of the above ones both as justice to the families and a deterrance against future agressors. Like, if you kill someone you forfeit the right to live.

I think, especially in the cases of islamic extremism that future perpetrators would think twice before doing something like that. I think if it works, if it would prevent murderers and terrorists from acting out, it should be applied in some cases. Seems too bad that in Britain, you cannot kill a murderer no matter what .

What does anyone else think? Im pretty sure I will be spirtually corrected…

It should not be about avenging wrong - not for Christians at least. Being locked up for life is punishment and justice. Insane people should be locked up and treated, not punished. Islamic terrorists are happy to die for Allah, the death penalty is not a deterrent and not for others from committing the terrible crimes they do.

If someone killed or hurt my child badly and I was there, at the moment I think I would try to kill him. That would be a result of pure anger. That is why in most countries, justice is administered by the state, not the family of victims.

We should be better that those who commit heinous acts. It should not be an eye for an eye.

 

[Fairwinds]

It should not be about avenging wrong - not for Christians at least. Being locked up for life is punishment and justice. Insane people should be locked up and treated, not punished. Islamic terrorists are happy to die for Allah, the death penalty is not a deterrent and not for others from committing the terrible crimes they do.

If someone killed or hurt my child badly and I was there, at the moment I think I would try to kill him. That would be a result of pure anger. That is why in most countries, justice is administered by the state, not the family of victims.

We should be better that those who commit heinous acts. It should not be an eye for an eye.

so you too place a higher value on the life of the convict than the lives that convict (drug lord, terrorist chief) will snuff out in the future through contact with the outside world ordering hits, terrorist activity.

this is a common theme here.

consider this an invitation to propose Jedi mind tricks and other hand wave arguments.

 

[Wampa]

I think, especially in the cases of islamic extremism that future perpetrators would think twice before doing something like that.

I think, especially in the cases of Islamic extremism, that future perpetrators would NOT think twice before doing something like that.

Why would people who are prepared to die as martyrs for their cause, as they have shown over and over again, be deterred by the death penalty? In fact, it could be an incentive to them: guaranteed martyrdom when captured.

I think the deterrence argument is weak generally, but it’s particularly weak when discussing Islamic extremism.

Edit: as severus68 just pointed out

 

[Fairwinds]

I think, especially in the cases of Islamic extremism, that future perpetrators would NOT think twice before doing something like that.

Why would people who are prepared to die as martyrs for their cause, as they have shown over and over again, be deterred by the death penalty? In fact, it could be an incentive to them: guaranteed martyrdom when captured.

I think the deterrence argument is weak generally, but it’s particularly weak when discussing Islamic extremism.

Edit: as severus68 just pointed out

let me try to make this even more simple:

an islamic terrorist already in prison orders killings in Egypt.

are you cool with that? do you value future victims’ lives as much as you value said terrorist’s? (not rhetorical questions)

because if he’s executed, he can’t order more killings in Egypt or anywhere else.

 

[john78]

There is also something to consider of the small percentage of those on death row, who are truly innocent. What about those individuals ? How does one argue that the death penalty should be abolished on that basis alone, to not throw out the good with the bad. ?
Then to consider we are supposed to be a civilized nation, and we resort to the death penalty ? Yet in the middle east, they still conduct public stonings, and when we finally hear of it we cringe and cry out ? How about places where caning is allowed as a form of punishment.

Justice through death ? Then we as Americans try to justify committing someone to death by claiming that a jury of 12 has thus determined it to be ? Really ? 12 random people is the standard we as a civilized nation decide to legalize death through a courtroom / legal process… in the end 12 people decide or on occasion a judge.
We as a nation can not even get our own government to act accordingly how in the world do we think we as humans are so noble and enlightened to be able to put someone to death.Yet there must be some punishment, because we are still stuck on the idea of " an eye for an eye ".

I do not know how our judicial system is even able to claim to be able to attempt to have a trial with the option for life or death… I would not want that decision resting on my soul… and one would think that there would be such a high standard of determining a jury. But how much does one want to bet it is just the average person being selected for these cases with the pending death penalty at stake… Not people with multiple degrees or are of a set religion and actually practice that religion.Even then I do not think we come close to being able to say 12 people are worthy of deciding to take anothers life… nor should 12 people be put in that position to decide in the first place.

But if anyone has been keeping tabs on the on going court cases in America, Jodi Arias has for the moment dodged the death penalty.

 

[Fairwinds]

…
Justice through death ? Then we as Americans try to justify committing someone to death by claiming that a jury of 12 has thus determined it to be ? Really ? 12 random people is the standard we as a civilized nation decide to legalize death through a courtroom / legal process… in the end 12 people decide or on occasion a judge…

I’d want you on any jury, even a non-capital case. I’d argue that since you can never be sure of guilt, you can never impose any punishment because that might not be Fair. and we don’t want to be unfair to our fine convicts.

 

[john78]

Side note, wasn’t Australia first a penial colony, a place to send criminals, kind of like alcatraz ?

I am thus reminded of the movie Escape from L.A, the sequal to Escape from New York .
California finally split due to the fault line and an enormous earthquake, an the government turned it into a giant self sustaining prison as a place to exile people who were either degenerates, criminals, or what have you…

Would that ever be a possibilty to have a mass of land sectioned off from society, much larger than a regular prison. Yet is self sustaining Solar power, recycling water an waste… using farming to provide for their own food… high tech security… A lot of unused desert land left in America… Wana talk about how to create jobs. Open up some kind of super max prison like that , people who have gotten death row, can live there along with other life term prisoners, no more death row, and they are away from any kind of general population, still provided their legal rights for appeals etc… and if they tried escaping they would have miles of desert to cross. An then these prisions that are currenting holding prisoners for death row and life in prison inmates will be less crowded.

an oversimplified solution that has not be fully thought out and thus the door is wide open to be shot down on how it is not feasible due to x,y, an z or for the simple fact that the government is far to busy on wasting tax payer money on something else .

 

[padrepio_2012]

Let’s not forget that future saint Pope john Paul II FORGAVE and PARDONED the terrorist who attempted to kill him. He didn’t have him sent to death row or assume that he’d do more evil crimes in the future. And the would be assassin CONVERTED because he had been given, another chance at life and someone recognized his dignity even after his crime. Let’s never assume that all criminals are evil and always will remain evil. Some do convert and want another chance at life

 

[Fairwinds]

Let’s not forget that future saint Pope john Paul II FORGAVE and PARDONED the terrorist who attempted to kill him. He didn’t have him sent to death row or assume that he’d do more evil crimes in the future. And the would be assassin CONVERTED because he had been given, another chance at life and someone recognized his dignity even after his crime. Let’s never assume that all criminals are evil and always will remain evil. Some do convert and want another chance at life

that terrorist wouldn’t have qualified for the DP under the CCC guidelines, unlike the ones in the examples I’ve given, who continue to orchestrate killings from prison.

cherrypicking examples from the class of convicts who clearly don’t qualify for the DP while ignoring the ones who do makes your argument very weak.

so here’s the standard question. are you cool with prisoners who order killings from behind bars?

 

[john78]

I’d want you on any jury, even a non-capital case. I’d argue that since you can never be sure of guilt, you can never impose any punishment because that might not be Fair. and we don’t want to be unfair to our fine convicts.

convicts are still people who are created by God, and still are afforded the chance of forgiveness, I for one will not be one to deny that them that opprotunity of forgiveness.

And life in prison with out parol is more than a fair and acceptable punishment. But for you fairwinds I will be more than willing to put my morals aside and deem you worthy for the death penalty if you ever decide to go on a killing spree. As you would want a fair punishment for your crime.

 

[Fairwinds]

convicts are still people who are created by God, and still are afforded the chance of forgiveness, I for one will not be one to deny that them that opprotunity of forgiveness.

And life in prison with out parol is more than a fair and acceptable punishment. But for you fairwinds I will be more than willing to put my morals aside and deem you worthy for the death penalty if you ever decide to go on a killing spree. As you would want a fair punishment for your crime.

I appreciate the personal kindness. but I won’t qualify for the DP under CCC guidelines unless my prison conditions can’t prevent me from ordering future killings, e.g., as with some gang leadership and terrorists. so if I were a gang leader or a terrorist who ordered killings while I was in prison, but not a spree killer, or a gang leader or terrorist who sat quietly in jail waiting for you to evangelize me (or, more accurately others falling into this category), feel free to demand my execution. not that I wouldn’t mind a little hell fire and brimstone preaching, mind you.

so, you’re cool with gang leaders and terrorists ordering killings from behind bars?

(I don’t know if I asked you this already, I ask most of the anti-DPers, and am still waiting for an answer, at this point I’ll take even a hand wave or Jedi mind trick).

 

[john78]

I appreciate the personal kindness. but I won’t qualify for the DP under CCC guidelines unless my prison conditions can’t prevent me from ordering future killings, e.g., as with some gang leadership and terrorists. so if I were a gang leader or a terrorist who ordered killings while I was in prison, but not a spree killer, or a gang leader or terrorist who sat quietly in jail waiting for you to evangelize me (or, more accurately others falling into this category), feel free to demand my execution. not that I wouldn’t mind a little hell fire and brimstone preaching, mind you.

so, you’re cool with gang leaders and terrorists ordering killings from behind bars?

(I don’t know if I asked you this already, I ask most of the anti-DPers, and am still waiting for an answer, at this point I’ll take even a hand wave or Jedi mind trick).

at this point i am convinced you are the one who is the leader of all gangs and terrorists who are doing such things behind bars, so ipsofacto if society just sentences you to death the problem is thus over and the world can now live in peace.

and dont worry the CCC has no hand in determining what a court of law does in regards to sentencing.

 

[Fairwinds]

at this point i am convinced you are the one who is the leader of all gangs and terrorists who are doing such things behind bars, so ipsofacto if society just sentences you to death the problem is thus over and the world can now live in peace.

that’s mighty kind of you to say.

and dont worry the CCC has no hand in determining what a court of law does in regards to sentencing.

who cares about that? this thread is about how we Catholics should think about the DP.

now there are two questions.

are you cool with preserving the lives of narco-gang leadership and terrorists at the expense of future victims? I guess this is about the third time I’ve asked.

and what, exactly, have you have you personally evangelized guys on DP to Save Their Souls? assuming its as important as you believe.

 

[john78]

I would rather argue about why you stole my jacket and wont give it back fairwinds, i have told you about 20 times already to give it back and you think you can just keep it because you picked it up and walked off with it.

shame on you you gang banging terrorist leading jacket thief you !.

 

[Fairwinds]

I would rather argue about why you stole my jacket and wont give it back fairwinds, i have told you about 20 times already to give it back and you think you can just keep it because you picked it up and walked off with it.

shame on you you gang banging terrorist leading jacket thief you !.

I assumed it was the janitor’s cleaning rag. anyone would have made that mistake.

 

[Wampa]

let me try to make this even more simple:

an islamic terrorist already in prison orders killings in Egypt.

are you cool with that? do you value future victims’ lives as much as you value said terrorist’s? (not rhetorical questions)

because if he’s executed, he can’t order more killings in Egypt or anywhere else.

Nope, I’m not cool with that, obviously. That may well fall within the narrow exceptions the CCC provides for. But the OP was not talking about that different scenario, so neither was I.

Kindly refrain from replying to me in the future. I have you on Ignore and don’t see your posts anymore (I only went back and checked it because someone quoted you as complaining you can’t get answers from people).

I am not a fan of your bullying debate style. The majority of posts I’ve seen from you contain the loaded question fallacy/rhetorical tool as your standard M.O. You’re not looking for an actual, constructive discussion, IMO, so I choose to skip over your posts.

BTW, I still stand by my earlier prediction.

 

[Fairwinds]

Nope, I’m not…discussion, IMO, so I choose to skip over your posts.

BTW, I still stand by my earlier prediction.

I’m on ignore but you’re responding?

who are you? honestly, I no idea who you are or what you’re talking about. I think you’re hounding the wrong person.

 

[Wampa]

I’m on ignore but you’re responding?

who are you? honestly, I no idea who you are or what you’re talking about. I think you’re hounding the wrong person.

As I explained, I saw your post in someone’s quote and it was clear you were talking about me, so I took a look.

Due to your daily posting volume and the number of people I’ve seen you bully, I’m not surprised you don’t remember me. During our previous run-in, I predicted you’re likely to get banned. Based on what I still see in quotes daily and how others are reacting to you, I stand by the assessment. Good luck.

 

[Fairwinds]

As I explai…d luck.

I’m not playing these games with you. if you say I’m on “ignore”, act like it.

and I have no idea who you are or what you want.

 

[Julianna]

As I explained, I saw your post in someone’s quote and it was clear you were talking about me, so I took a look.

Due to your daily posting volume and the number of people I’ve seen you bully, I’m not surprised you don’t remember me. During our previous run-in, I predicted you’re likely to get banned. Based on what I still see in quotes daily and how others are reacting to you, I stand by the assessment. Good luck.

fairwinds…looks like someone has their crystal ball out.

Wampa, not everyone is going to “agree” on everything. You have ignored fairwinds, but yet you respond. Seems like you are goading him, not the other way around. I have ignored ppl as well. When they respond in someone’s post and I see, I don’t respond, that is how the ignore feature works. just sayin’