Wanting Death Penalty

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Regarding efforts, if you are familiar with Prison Ministries, then you would know for such that Catholics put in effort in helping out and evangelising criminals.

Regarding success, we know for sure that criminals do convert. From the Old Testament still date, we have learnt about criminals who have converted. A good example is Alessandro Serenelli.

We as Catholics also know for sure that God acts at His desired time (and not ours). So if your definition of success is that you pray to God and expect Him to answer your prayer immediately and exactly as you want, then your questioning of the success in converting criminals is analogous to the success of prayer.

St Thérèse of Lisieux promised that she would spend her time in heaven praying for the conversion of souls. So you are indirectly questioning the success of this mission of hers. Etc.
no, I’m asking what is being done. so no insulting insinuations, ok?

I’m sure you successfully convert some criminals. I’m asking if you’ve converted any islamic terrorists or drug gang leadership on death row, the kind who’d actually qualify for the DP under the CCC.

Alessandro Serenelli would not qualify for the DP under CCC guidelines.
 

If someone eradicates my entire family, I don’t see how killing that person would bring justice to me / bring back my family to life. I believe justice will ultimately be done by the one and only true judge at the right time.
that’s a common misrepresentation of the purpose of the DP and of who might qualify for the DP.
 
We are not required to interpret every passage literally:
My (and your) interpretations are irrelevant. It is the church who took it literally, that is, took it to mean exactly what it says.
Will you advocate for stoning now? (Deut 22:23-24)
In Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking to the Israelites, laying down the Mosaic Law. In Genesis, God himself is speaking to Noah, establishing his covenant. We are not bound by Mosaic Law but God’s covenants are still in effect.
Nor does 2260 call for capital punishment.
You recognized that Gn 9:6 calls for capital punishment in your first statement about taking the passage literally and now you claim it means something else? The statement is clear and the meaning is obvious
Perhaps we are reading different documents. The CCC does not state that the restriction on the death penalty is prudential; its basis is clearly moral.
The lack of a footnote identifying passages as prudential doesn’t make them any less so. As has been pointed out before, the third sentence about the capabilities of modern penal systems is obviously a judgment; it is not doctrine.
Again, “just retribution” is not a permissible criterion in the application of the death penalty according to Catholic teaching.
According to nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching this is exactly how capital punishment was justified. Cardinal Dulles was citing historical fact; that is what the church had always taught.
The OT understanding of life is incomplete:
Whether the OT understanding of life in general is incomplete is irrelevant to how the church understood Gn 9:6. Dismissing that passage on the grounds that it is part of the OT dismisses not only the OT but the Traditional teaching of the church up to 1995.
Pope John Paul II elaborates later in the encyclical:
Evangelium Vitae and 2267 say the same thing. Interestingly, each of them has only one endnote identifying the source of this new position on capital punishment. Each points to the other. EV 56 cites 2267 and 2267 cites EV 56. Unsurprisingly there is not a single statement in all of church history that provides a basis for what they present.
Nor is retributive justice ever a sufficient reason to employ capital punishment.
Capital punishment cannot be used unless the criminal deserves it, otherwise it would be unjust, but if you admit that he deserves the penalty then that is to admit the claims of retributive justice.

Ender
 
As others have pointed out time and again, the key here is whether there are other effective ways of defending human lives against criminals. And the answer is unequivocally YES! Thus making the death penalty obsolete.
I think the key is to understand the primary objective of punishment. If it was to protect life then you might have a point but in fact protection, while it is a valid objective, is only secondary. The primary objective is retributive justice, and it is not obvious how the death penalty could be obsolete when the catechism has just said that the teaching of 2260 is “necessary for all time.”
This generation more than any other generation has developed a deeper understanding of human dignity and how all humans ought to be treated. This generation knows the history of divine intervention more than any other generation.
I wonder that you are so willing to disparage 20 centuries of church thinking and teaching. To believe that only now in the 21st century has Catholicism finally come to understand human dignity is a rejection of not just all the Doctors, Fathers, popes, and saints of the church prior to our lifetimes but also the foundation on which the legitimacy of church teaching rests: that she and she alone has the “task of authentically interpreting the word of God.” Clearly if she has been wrong about this subject for so long it demolishes the claim that she can authentically interpret God’s word.
It is thus in this light, that it has been declared that, the lives of criminals should first and foremost be preserved and we acknowledge that we have the means to immobilise such persons.
The life of the murderer is to be spared because he is made in the image of God; his life has dignity. Claiming this is to reverse the meaning of Gn 9:6 which holds that the life of the murderer is forfeit because the life of his victim was sacred. This approach ignores the victim and the nature of the crime and focuses solely on securing the life of the killer, losing any recognition of the *“just conception of the wickedness of murder.”

*Ender
 
Regarding success, we know for sure that criminals do convert.
*“The fate of the wicked being open to conversion so long as they live does not preclude their being open also to the just punishment of death.” *(Aquinas)
We as Catholics also know for sure that God acts at His desired time (and not ours).
Paradoxically, those who oppose capital punishment on these grounds are assuming the state has a sort of totalitarian capacity which it does not in fact possess, a power to frustrate the whole of one’s existence. Since a death imposed by one man on another can remove neither the latter’s moral goal nor his human worth, it is still more incapable of preventing the operation of God’s justice, which sits in judgment on all our adjudications. (Romano Amerio, theological adviser at Vatican II)
Ender
 
no, I’m asking what is being done. so no insulting insinuations, ok?
I have told you what is being done by giving you a simple example of Prison Ministries.
I’m sure you successfully convert some criminals. I’m asking if you’ve converted any islamic terrorists or drug gang leadership on death row, the kind who’d actually qualify for the DP under the CCC.
Where I live, such things like “death rows” don’t exist. The CCC does not state that islamic terrorists or drug gang leaders qualify for execution. I don’t know where you are getting that from. Are islamic terrorists any different from other terrorists or murderers in general like those folks who go killing people are schools?
Alessandro Serenelli would not qualify for the DP under CCC guidelines.
:confused: Where does the CCC lists those who are qualified for state execution?
 
You are probably right as I myself feel that the death penalty is an abhorrent and barbaric practice.
*Capital punishment comes to be regarded as barbarous in an irreligious society, that is shut within earthly horizons and which feels it has no right to deprive a man of the only good there is. *(Romano Amerio)

*The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches. When death came to be understood as the ultimate evil rather than as a stage on the way to eternal life, utilitarian philosophers such as Jeremy Bentham found it easy to dismiss capital punishment as “useless annihilation.” *(Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
 
I wonder that you are so willing to disparage 20 centuries of church thinking and teaching. To believe that only now in the 21st century has Catholicism finally come to understand human dignity is a rejection of not just all the Doctors, Fathers, popes, and saints of the church prior to our lifetimes but also the foundation on which the legitimacy of church teaching rests: that she and she alone has the “task of authentically interpreting the word of God.” Clearly if she has been wrong about this subject for so long it demolishes the claim that she can authentically interpret God’s word.
I was suspecting this respond and that is why I specifically said “deeper understanding”. It is a fact that, over time, the Church has had a deeper understanding of many things related to our faith and has thus updated Church teaching accordingly. The death penalty article in the CCC as we all know was recently updated. In the past, Mary Magdalene was considered to have been the prostitute mentioned in the NT. The Church today does not believe that Mary Magdalene was the prostitute. And don’t ask me whether that is “a change” in Church teaching.

My point is (and you should be aware of this), Church teachings certainly get improved as the Church continues to become more informed about the faith.
 
So the State should do it because it can?

Should we also cut of the hands of thieves, stone adulterers, kill gays? That is in the Bible too.
Dear severus68,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

The authority of the state, dear sister, is a delegated, and not an absolute authority and thus the power with which it is invested to administer any punishment is derived from God - “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God:* the powers that be are of ordained of God*” (Rom. 13: 1, added emphasis mine). No government could obtain or retain power without God’s will and it is He who has instituted the state for the express purpose of supporting all good and supressing all evil. Therefore, it is only because the civil authority is divinely ordained that the civil magistrate has the power to inflict punishment, including capital punishment (Rom. 13: 4). In point of fact, when the civil magistrate inflicts the death penalty for murder he is merely doing his God-given duty by being obedient to the primeval and perpetually valid law: “Whose sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man” (Gen. 9: 6).

In the Mosaic law the death penalty was prescribed for eighteen different offences, of which murder was but one. However, as I said in my previous post to you, dear sister, the criminal code of Israel is no longer binding under the New Covenant and so we do not now, for example, execute men for homosexuality (Lev. 20: 13) adultery (Lev. 20:10) or cursing God (Lev. 24: 10-16). Moreover, legitimate distinctions can be made between the legislation given to Israel as theocratic state under Moses and the more universal revelation given to mankind through Noah. Noah stood at the head of a new human race after the Flood and thus the original mandate of Genesis 9: 6 remains perpetually valid, being antecedent to the Mosaic law. In any case the whole rationale for the death penalty for murder is man being created in the image of God and since there has been no abrogation of this image of God in man, then it surely follows that the rationale for the death penalty remains valid and cannot be altered or annulled.

Our Church Catechism, dear sister, whilst strongly discouraging capital punishment does not overtly condemn it and this is hardly surprising since the constant teaching of the Catholic Church has always held the death penalty to be morally licit. Moreover, the teaching of previous popes and catechisms has not only consistently deemed capital punishment to be legitimate, but has also taught that its validity is not subject to cultural variation. At any rate it would have never considered capital punishment to be a moral evil or something for a nation to be deeply ashamed of. The current anti-capital punishment sentiment, now so fashionable in the contemporary Catholicism, is tantamount to accusing the Church of inhumane and un-Christian behaviour throughout the ages because it sanctioned the state’s right to bear the sword, as St. Paul puts it (Rom. 13: 4). Besides, is it really credible that God only gave the Church a growing awareness of the dignity and value of human life in recent decades, thus enabling her to apprehend the alleged moral evil of the death penalty? That hardly seems a tenable position to embrace and would be at variance with Genesis 9: 6, where God Himself mandated the death penalty for murder. Such a position seems to me to shut us in to the impious belief that God was unaware of the dignity of human life and the moral evil of capital punishment when He instituted it at the first.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
I…The CCC does not state that islamic terrorists or drug gang leaders qualify for execution. I don’t know where you are getting that from. Are islamic terrorists any different from other terrorists or murderers in general like those folks who go killing people are schools?

:confused: Where does the CCC lists those who are qualified for state execution?
yes, certain high level islamic terrorists and gang leaders are very different from murderers in general.

reread the CCC. it identifies specific **conditions **where execution is suitable. it doesn’t list specific examples, thank you for illustrating a straw man argument.

in the USA, at least one terrorist serving a life sentence was able to order addition killings outside of prison. drug gang leaders run street gangs from inside, ordering killing, rape, extortion. prison regulations are limited by constitutional law and cannot completely isolate these felons. use of the DP for these limited number of convicts falls within CCC guidelines.

we are concerned about the unavoidable future killings of innocent people, and in those situations, the DP is moral. DP opponents, typically, appear not so worried about these innocent lives.

you should, however, have some familiarity with the DP.

ProTip: don’t use a confused emoticon as sarcasm when, in fact, you really are confused.
 
My (and your) interpretations are irrelevant. It is the church who took it literally, that is, took it to mean exactly what it says.
The Church does not take it literally vis-a-vis capital punishment. That suggestion would mean that the CCC contradicts itself. Is that what you are saying?
In Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking to the Israelites, laying down the Mosaic Law. In Genesis, God himself is speaking to Noah, establishing his covenant. We are not bound by Mosaic Law but God’s covenants are still in effect.
And as EV stated, the OT did not include a full awareness of the sanctity of life as understood by the Church.
You recognized that Gn 9:6 calls for capital punishment in your first statement about taking the passage literally and now you claim it means something else? The statement is clear and the meaning is obvious
No, it is not. I never claimed it called for capital punishment.
The lack of a footnote identifying passages as prudential doesn’t make them any less so. As has been pointed out before, the third sentence about the capabilities of modern penal systems is obviously a judgment; it is not doctrine.
The judgment is based on a moral necessity, that to avoid capital punishment when possible. The Church asserts this at a moral level but does not specify cases in which it applies. The judgment refers not to the actual act but to specific applications.
According to nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching this is exactly how capital punishment was justified. Cardinal Dulles was citing historical fact; that is what the church had always taught.
The Church teaches that capital punishment is not intrinsically immoral. It is not, however, morally permissible unless no other recourse is available. That is the Church teaching.
Whether the OT understanding of life in general is incomplete is irrelevant to how the church understood Gn 9:6.
I am interested in how the Church understands it now.
Dismissing that passage on the grounds that it is part of the OT dismisses not only the OT but the Traditional teaching of the church up to 1995.
No. That simply does not follow.
Evangelium Vitae and 2267 say the same thing. Interestingly, each of them has only one endnote identifying the source of this new position on capital punishment. Each points to the other. EV 56 cites 2267 and 2267 cites EV 56. Unsurprisingly there is not a single statement in all of church history that provides a basis for what they present.
It is an encyclical and the CCC is the most recent catechism. If you are willing to dismiss them, we have nothing more to discuss.
Capital punishment cannot be used unless the criminal deserves it, otherwise it would be unjust, but if you admit that he deserves the penalty then that is to admit the claims of retributive justice.
No; it is to admit the inability to protect society against the criminal in any other way.
 
I think the key is to understand the primary objective of punishment. If it was to protect life then you might have a point but in fact protection, while it is a valid objective, is only secondary. The primary objective is retributive justice, and it is not obvious how the death penalty could be obsolete when the catechism has just said that the teaching of 2260 is “necessary for all time.”
I would interpret CCC 2260 differently. Certainly, OT teachings are necessary for all time. That is why we still have the OT in the bible and still read some of those books in Church. However, we are no longer subject to some OT laws. There was an old covenant between God and man (as mentioned in 2260). The first coming of Christ was a fulfillment of the new covenant between God and man.

2266 states that “Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense.”…“Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.” So how is that (rehabilitation) compartible with the death penalty?

The death penalty is obsolete because in this age, it is not the “only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”
 

The death penalty is obsolete because in this age, it is not the “only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”
this is demonstrably untrue for a few specific situations.
 
My (and your) interpretations are irrelevant. It is the church who took it literally, that is, took it to mean exactly what it says.
In Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking to the Israelites, laying down the Mosaic Law. In Genesis, God himself is speaking to Noah, establishing his covenant. We are not bound by Mosaic Law but God’s covenants are still in effect.
You recognized that Gn 9:6 calls for capital punishment in your first statement about taking the passage literally and now you claim it means something else? The statement is clear and the meaning is obvious
The lack of a footnote identifying passages as prudential doesn’t make them any less so. As has been pointed out before, the third sentence about the capabilities of modern penal systems is obviously a judgment; it is not doctrine.
According to nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching this is exactly how capital punishment was justified. Cardinal Dulles was citing historical fact; that is what the church had always taught.
Whether the OT understanding of life in general is incomplete is irrelevant to how the church understood Gn 9:6. Dismissing that passage on the grounds that it is part of the OT dismisses not only the OT but the Traditional teaching of the church up to 1995.
Evangelium Vitae and 2267 say the same thing. Interestingly, each of them has only one endnote identifying the source of this new position on capital punishment. Each points to the other. EV 56 cites 2267 and 2267 cites EV 56. Unsurprisingly there is not a single statement in all of church history that provides a basis for what they present.
Capital punishment cannot be used unless the criminal deserves it, otherwise it would be unjust, but if you admit that he deserves the penalty then that is to admit the claims of retributive justice.

Ender
Dear Ender,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly well said - absolutely splendid stuff.

It admits of no serious doubt, dear friend, that there has been a radical shift in our Church’s understanding of capital punishment in recent times. As Mr. Keating (founder of Catholic Answers) has observed:

"The Catechism has not dealt with the death penalty in a sufficiently full way. It has limited itself to just one aspect, public safety, while not even discussing the purposes of punishment. Beyond that it has included a prudential judgment (the only one in the Catechism on any topic, so far as I am aware) that, by its nature, cannot be binding in conscience".

(Karl Keating’s E Letter, 2nd March 2004, added emphasis mine).

Mr Keating’s remarks were based upon an article written by the canon lawyer, R.M. Dunnigan. This is what Mr. Dunnigan said in that article:

“Catholic teaching on capital punishment is in a state of dangerous ambiguity. The discussion of the death penalty in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is so difficult to interpret that conscientious members of the faithful scarcely know what their Church obliges them to believe. Although the constant teaching of the Church has been that the state has the right to impose the death penalty, the Catechism declares that the actual circumstances in which capital punishment is legitimate are “practically non-existent”. Moreover, the Catechism weaves doctrine so tightly together with prudential and factual judgements that it is not at all clear how much of its discourse on capital punishment actually is being put forward as binding Catholic teaching”

No doubt people will say by way of reply that standing Church teaching is not a mess for them and that they do not see any “dangerous ambiguity”. However, the fact that a canon lawyer and a highly respected Catholic apologist have raised issues with Catechism teaching on capital punishment, perhaps may just indicate that the current teaching is a little muddy and that some uncertainty as to its precise meaning may exist. At any rate, many are of the opinion that this teaching should be revisited and that Holy Mother Church should dispel any uncertainty and clarify definitively its position on this most weighty matter.

As you correctly state, dear friend, Catholic teaching has always justified the death penalty as the just retribution for the heinous crime of murder. Unfortunately, owing to the maudlin ideology of secular humanism, contemporary Western society has become deeply suspicious of the whole concept of retribution for wrongdoing. Our judicial and penal systems tend to want to deal with criminals purely in terms of deterring and reforming them, not in terms of punishing. Thus we have almost completely lost sight of just retribution as a concept and have come to view it as something unworthy and wrapped up with vengeance. This is, of course, arrant nonsense but its sits very comfortably with the ‘touchy-feely’ age in which our lot is cast. However, Genesis 9: 6 - “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man” - unmistakeably speaks the language of retribution and was uttered by God Himself. Thus if we are unhappy with the death penalty as a just retribution for murder, then our argument is with God who mandated the punishment in the first place. Sacred Scripture is quite unequivocal that capital punishment is established as the retribution to be meted out to the person who wantonly and wilfully takes the life of his fellow. As long as man retains the image of God capital punishment will always have permanent relevance and validity. Moreover, no crime is as extreme and, as it concerns the person who is the victim, none as irremediable, as the crime of taking life itself. No, the death penalty will not bring the victim back from the grave, but it will ensure that the punishment is commensurate with the crime and that justice is truly done and seen to be done, allowing the victims relatives/friends to have closure.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
yes, certain high level islamic terrorists and gang leaders are very different from murderers in general.

reread the CCC. it identifies specific **conditions **where execution is suitable. it doesn’t list specific examples, thank you for illustrating a straw man argument.

in the USA, at least one terrorist serving a life sentence was able to order addition killings outside of prison. drug gang leaders run street gangs from inside, ordering killing, rape, extortion. prison regulations are limited by constitutional law and cannot completely isolate these felons. use of the DP for these limited number of convicts falls within CCC guidelines.

we are concerned about the unavoidable future killings of innocent people, and in those situations, the DP is moral. DP opponents, typically, appear not so worried about these innocent lives.

you should, however, have some familiarity with the DP.

ProTip: don’t use a confused emoticon as sarcasm when, in fact, you really are confused.
Oh please, show me where the CCC states that a crime like that committed by Alessandro Serenelli is not subject to the death penalty!

Again, if we go by the logic that people in prison can still order additional killings, then all suspects would have to be executed on the spot instead of being arrested and tried. Because while in custody, during their trial, they could still order executions. Isn’t it?

I have said this before and I will say it again: we have the ability to completey isolate someone from the rest of society and thus preventing the person in question from committing further crimes. As such, the death penalty is obsolete.

Being pro-life means we strongly support and defend the life of everyone. That includes innocent lives of course. Do we need to spell that out? We are discussing the death penalty which is about the state killing criminals and possibly innocent people. If you want to start a new thread about criminals killing innocent people, please do so and we will satisfy you in defending the lives of the innocents.
 
Being pro-life means we strongly support and defend the life of everyone. That includes innocent lives of course. Do we need to spell that out? We are discussing the death penalty which is about the state killing criminals and possibly innocent people. If you want to start a new thread about criminals killing innocent people, please do so and we will satisfy you in defending the lives of the innocents.
Dear kelvin,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Let me say by way of reply, dear friend, that when God Himself mandated the death penalty for murder in Genesis 9: 6 He did not express any concerns about possible miscarriages of justice or innocent men being executed. Moreover, when St. Paul speaks of the death penalty in the N.T. (Rom. 13: 4) he also teaches that the civil authority, “as minister of God”, is invested with the power to inflict punishment, including the death penalty - “…he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil, added emphasis mine”. Jolly strong stuff that and in the New Testament as well. However, the apostle does not speak of innocent men being executed, but does actually support the right of the state to punish the wrongdoer. In a fallen imperfect world there will always be miscarriages of justice but that cannot dispense with need for having general laws, including the death penalty for murder. Remember, when God instituted capital punishment he was well aware that he was delegating the office of executioner to fallen men, who themselves had deeply wounded natures as a consequence of Original Sin.

Please, dear friend, do not misunderstand my meaning. Of course we should be concerned regarding miscarriages of justice, but that cannot be a valid argument against the death penalty itself, for otherwise we must say that God made an error of judgement in allowing mere man to put to death another man for murder, given the risk of a mistake in an imperfect world. This sort of argumentation betrays a very earthbound perspective which only thinks in terms of this mortal and transitory life and not eternity. Even if an innocent man is executed, and I freely acknowledge that that is always a possibility, his immortal soul continues live on and we know that beyond the grave the “Judge of all the earth will do right” and all wrongs will be remedied. However, with all the advances in forensic science and DNA, the likelihood of innocent men being executed nowadays has surely become exceedingly rare, if not virtually non-existent.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Is it that hard to understand how to isolate someone from the rest of society?
I’m assuming you actually want to know.

2011 National Gang Threat Assessment – Emerging Trends
fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment

Lynne Stewart
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Stewart

family members and lawyers pass information to street gangs and terrorist organizations, the latter in spite of special administrative procedures.

I’m also assuming you can’t do any better at stopping this than the prison officials. but let the handwave arguments begin again.
 
Oh please, show me where the CCC states that a crime like that committed by Alessandro Serenelli is not subject to the death penalty!..
this will be my last response to you because I think you’re intentionally misstating my position and the CCC itself.

Alessandro Serenelli would not be subject to the DP under CCC rules because he can be locked up without risk of him committing future offenses, he is unlike the prison gang leaders, who in fact keep directing gang activities from prison through intermediaries such as attorneys. see the FBI report and the wiki article on Stewart for particulars.
 
It is a fact that, over time, the Church has had a deeper understanding of many things related to our faith and has thus updated Church teaching accordingly.
Updated, yes; repudiated, no.
In the past, Mary Magdalene was considered to have been the prostitute mentioned in the NT. The Church today does not believe that Mary Magdalene was the prostitute. And don’t ask me whether that is “a change” in Church teaching.
This is no more a change in church doctrine than accepting that the Earth revolves around the sun rather than vice versa. Neither was ever doctrine to begin with.

Ender
 
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