Wanting Death Penalty

[Ender]

You should still read about Cameron Todd Willingham though.

Are you claiming that it is known that Willingham was innocent or only that a very strong argument is being made about his innocence? Do you know whether he was innocent?

Ender

 

[Fairwinds]

Are you claiming that it is known that Willingham was innocent or only that a very strong argument is being made about his innocence? Do you know whether he was innocent?

Ender

people talk about “innocence” and “guilt” as if they had full knowledge of events. no one does. these terms are defined in a technical and somewhat artificial way. a man caught covered in blood and viscera with a knife in hand, with dead bodies strewn around him is absolutely, totally, unambiguously innocent until the jury finds him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt after a fair trial allowing the defendant to confront witnesses, introduce evidence, etc. And the trial itself will be reviewed by appellate courts to ensure that the convict was given a his due process. if the legislature decides that courts can review cases to look at new (e.g., DNA) evidence long after the fact, that’s fine too.

but it doesn’t matter what Wikipedia or any other website or person or advocacy group says about guilt. if he’s been found guilty and the courts of appeal have affirmed this judgment, he’s guilty.

 

[Forkfoot]

Are you claiming that it is known that Willingham was innocent or only that a very strong argument is being made about his innocence? Do you know whether he was innocent?

Ender

I will claim to know that there’s no good reason to believe he was guilty, knowing what we know now.

I’ma keep using the words guilty and innocent, just to rustle Fairwinds’ jimmies.

 

[Forkfoot]

you have different ideas than the Church.

No I don’t.

 

[Forkfoot]

I did not mean to mislead. Trafficking in drugs is a capital offense in Singapore. You can definitely be imprisoned for a long time and/or caned in public for possession alone. If you are even in possession of a sufficient quantity (18 oz in the case of marijuana) you are presumed to be a traficker and can be executed.

So, yes, they have rehab, but they also have severe punishment.

No, “considered trafficking”= laws against trafficking, not use. It’s a hugely important distinction I’m making between dealing and using, and it seems like you keep missing it.

. Alcohol is legal, but I could buy moonshine within a half hour if I wanted to.

You could, but you won’t. And neither will anybody else I know.

There is no way some “legitimate” manufacturer is going to make meth more cheaply than it can be “homemade”. No way a “legitimate” seller is going to make marijuana cheaper than it can be grown clandestinely in dry creek beds in the backwoods.

The meth lab is a health hazard and they didn’t pay their licencing dues; shut them down, evict them, and slap them with a gigantic fine. Pot could be grown openly in huge crops far more efficiently than in a dry creek bed.

And, having had some experience with law enforcement, I think I can assure you that most drug offenders who are actually serving time in prison are not the kinds of people you want to let out. They aren’t vicious people because they are drug dealers, they’re drug dealers because they’re vicious people. Consider for a moment how depraved a person has to be to distribute “free introductory” heroin to children in order to create his market.
They do that, you know.

If they’re that bad then surely they’re committing other crimes. Charge them for those.

 

[Fairwinds]

I will claim to know that there’s no good reason to believe he was guilty, knowing what we know now.

I’ma keep using the words guilty and innocent, just to rustle Fairwinds’ jimmies.

I’m everyone’s foil.

 

[BlaineTog]

Then again…*
** Children are innocent and love justice, while most adults are wicked and prefer mercy. *(G.K. Chesterton)
Ender

With respect to Chesterton, children can be evil little monsters capable of profound acts of cruelty.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Well first of all this is Singapore, which means (uh-oh!) universal healthcare. Drug addiction gets treated like the medical issue it is, and taxpayers are fine with that cuz it costs them either way.

I fail to understand this argument. You are correct in saying that drug addiction is a medical issue in Singapore, but it is also a criminal issue, as in many other places. As far as I understand, there is no country that does not at least treat drug addiction as a medical issue, even if drug use is legalised.

Also, a drug rehabilitation centre is basically a prison with the dual function of housing and treating drug addicts, which is why it is the typical sentencing option for drug addicts. Of course, it is ‘paid by taxpayers’ and taxpayers are fine with it, but you could say the same thing of standard prisons as well.

Anyway, it’s not really relevant to the question of the death penalty. The death penalty in Singapore is applied for drug trafficking, not addiction.

 

[Faithdancer]

what’s a “fox news catholic”? is that some artificial label like “raddie trads” or “cafeteria catholics”?

It’s any Catholic that sees that the true enemy is not the Baptists, the Lutherans, the COC, etc. etc. but is in actuality SATAN and all his minions doing his work here on Earth- the militant atheists, the militant homosexuals, the militant Islamists, the militant secularists, etc. Time for all Christians to put aside internecine differences and unite against the Prince of Lies!

 

[Forkfoot]

I fail to understand this argument. You are correct in saying that drug addiction is a medical issue in Singapore, but it is also a criminal issue, as in many other places. As far as I understand, there is no country that does not at least treat drug addiction as a medical issue, even if drug use is legalised.

No, the U.S. takes a punitive approach to drug use over rehabilitative. Rehab programs are out there but their funding is dwarfed by what we spend keeping drug addicts in cages.

Also, a drug rehabilitation centre is basically a prison with the dual function of housing and treating drug addicts,

Hahaha! No. No, prisons are very different from drug rehabilitation centers. Do you live in the U.S.?

Anyway, it’s not really relevant to the question of the death penalty. The death penalty in Singapore is applied for drug trafficking, not addiction.

This thread got derailed a few pages back when I said I’d make a budget for securing dangerous prisoners by ending the war on drugs, rather than executing people who might be innocent.

 

[Ender]

The death penalty should be a measure of absolute last resort. If we were capable of perfectly preventing our prison inmates from harm, the death penalty would never be appropriate, according to the Catechism.

What do you mean by “appropriate”? If you mean it would be immoral then, based on the Traditional teaching of the church, this cannot be true. If you mean only that modern societies are better off not using it then as a practical judgment it might be true but it is at least debatable.

As it stands, the Church has explicitly judged the modern world’s penal system as good enough at its job that the death penalty should be very rare. If not practically nonexistant.

This is unquestionably a judgment, not a doctrine, and we are not obliged to assent to it. Surely Cardinal Ratzinger meant at least this much when he said:“There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty”
Ender

 

[Filii_Dei]

No, the U.S. takes a punitive approach to drug use over rehabilitative. Rehab programs are out there but their funding is dwarfed by what we spend keeping drug addicts in cages.

Fair enough, but one must understand that DRCs in Singapore are considered as much punitive as it is rehabilitative. I am sure that you understand that punitive refers to punishment acting as a deterrent, as opposed to rehabilitation which is punishment acting as a reforming process. While it is true that DRCs in Singapore rehabilitate, it also has a famously strong deterrent function to drug users as nobody wishes to be in a place where, like the prison, they are regimented and lose all freedoms and privileges.

Hahaha! No. No, prisons are very different from drug rehabilitation centers. Do you live in the U.S.?

Firstly, I was talking about the institutions in Singapore. I never said a thing about American prisons or drug rehabilitation centres, and I honestly don’t care. Whether your prisons and DRCs are similar or different is none of my concern.

Secondly, do you live in Singapore? Do you know how our prisons or drug rehabilitation centres are run? It is a poor assumption to think that drug rehabilitation centres everywhere are run similarly, and to assume that they must be as different from our prisons as they are in your country.

Thirdly, please, cut the sarcasm.

To reiterate, I can tell you that our DRCs are essentially similar to our prisons, except that the inmates are treated for their addiction as well. Yes, there have to be some differences in the way the DRCs are run (otherwise they would not be separate institutions), but they are not what you think they are. That means drug addicts are kept in ‘cages’ as well and subject to a heavily regimented lifestyle with loss of personal freedoms to a level similar to the prisons. This is why they, like our prisons, are run by our prison service.

This thread got derailed a few pages back when I said I’d make a budget for securing dangerous prisoners by ending the war on drugs, rather than executing people who might be innocent.

That makes sense. Let’s try to keep this argument brief then, lest we derail everyone else.

 

[Forkfoot]

Fair enough, but one must understand that DRCs in Singapore are considered as much punitive as it is rehabilitative. I am sure that you understand that punitive refers to punishment acting as a deterrent, as opposed to rehabilitation which is punishment acting as a reforming process. While it is true that DRCs in Singapore rehabilitate, it also has a famously strong deterrent function to drug users as nobody wishes to be in a place where, like the prison, they are regimented and lose all freedoms and privileges.

Firstly, I was talking about the institutions in Singapore. I never said a thing about American prisons or drug rehabilitation centres, and I honestly don’t care. Whether your prisons and DRCs are similar or different is none of my concern.

Secondly, do you live in Singapore? Do you know how our prisons or drug rehabilitation centres are run? It is a poor assumption to think that drug rehabilitation centres everywhere are run similarly, and to assume that they must be as different from our prisons as they are in your country.

Thirdly, please, cut the sarcasm.

To reiterate, I can tell you that our DRCs are essentially similar to our prisons, except that the inmates are treated for their addiction as well. Yes, there have to be some differences in the way the DRCs are run (otherwise they would not be separate institutions), but they are not what you think they are. That means drug addicts are kept in ‘cages’ as well and subject to a heavily regimented lifestyle with loss of personal freedoms to a level similar to the prisons. This is why they, like our prisons, are run by our prison service.

That makes sense. Let’s try to keep this argument brief then, lest we derail everyone else.

Singapore only came up because another poster used it as an example of the punitive approach to drug abuse being effective. I pointed out that Singapore also has a far better approach to *treatment *of addiction than we (here in the U.S.) do, which is clearly a huge part of why they’re so successful. Throughout this conversation though we’ve been talking specifically about the U.S.'s war on drugs, which I see as a colossal failure.

I have no idea how your prisons and recovery units are run; I suspect that both are far superior to ours. I was speaking specifically about the difference between treatment/recovery centers and prisons here in the U.S.

 

[BlaineTog]

What do you mean by “appropriate”? If you mean it would be immoral then, based on the Traditional teaching of the church, this cannot be true.

It cannot be true that the death penalty is immoral under certain circumstances?

This is unquestionably a judgment, not a doctrine, and we are not obliged to assent to it. Surely Cardinal Ratzinger meant at least this much when he said:“There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty”
Ender

I don’t disagree. But one must call a spade a spade: if you (general “you”) disagree with the church about this, then don’t stand there and tell me differently.

 

[Filii_Dei]

tment of addiction than we (here in the U.S.) do, which is clearly a huge part of why they’re so successful. Throughout this conversation though we’ve been talking specifically about the U.S.'s war on drugs, which I see as a colossal failure.

I have no idea how your prisons and recovery units are run; I suspect that both are far superior to ours. I was speaking specifically about the difference between treatment/recovery centers and prisons here in the U.S.

A fair point. In that case I agree with you that drug abuse needs to be rehabilitated, not just punished. It is also my view that the two are not mutually exclusive. I do not know how prisons in the US are run, so I have no idea if we are truly superior, but I thank you for your compliment of my country nonetheless.

Anyway, I thank you for this vigorous discussion and I shall now return to observing the thread.

 

[Forkfoot]

Cool. I will get this thread back on topic by saying you’ll never see drug trafficking become a capital crime here in the States; the majority would consider that barbaric, myself included. It may be an effective deterrent to trafficking, as would torture and chopping off their hands, but the ends don’t justify the means. Most of us can at least agree on that.

 

[april32010]

actually,for someone selling drugs to children i would have no problem executing someone

 

[Forkfoot]

actually,for someone selling drugs to children i would have no problem executing someone

Of course you wouldn’t. I said the majority.

 

[Ender]

It cannot be true that the death penalty is immoral under certain circumstances?

Circumstances alter all cases. As a precept, however, capital punishment is not immoral.

I don’t disagree. But one must call a spade a spade: if you (general “you”) disagree with the church about this, then don’t stand there and tell me differently.

I don’t “disagree with the church”. I disagree with the prudential judgment of the bishops.Since the Christian revelation tells us nothing about the particulars of contemporary society, the Pope and the bishops have to rely on their personal judgment as qualified spiritual leaders in making practical applications. Their prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender

 

[Ridgerunner]

No, “considered trafficking”= laws against trafficking, not use. It’s a hugely important distinction I’m making between dealing and using, and it seems like you keep missing it.

You could, but you won’t. And neither will anybody else I know.

The meth lab is a health hazard and they didn’t pay their licencing dues; shut them down, evict them, and slap them with a gigantic fine. Pot could be grown openly in huge crops far more efficiently than in a dry creek bed.

If they’re that bad then surely they’re committing other crimes. Charge them for those.

Possibly you’re not intentionally missing the point.

Making harmful street drugs legal will not necessarily stop illegal trafficking or “pushing”. Do you really think law enforcement will be able to shut illegal meth labs down by “fining” them when it has such trouble finding them when it’s a criminal offense?

So you’re going to legalize and tax marijuana. How do you know it will drive illegal growers out when it’s so easy to grow? Illegal cigarette sales to avoid taxes are a big business. Why do you think street drugs would be different?

How do you know I have never gotten moonshine? You don’t. There is a lot more of it around than you seem to realize.

For every user there is a dealer. The relationship is perversely symbiotic.