Wanting to understand the pre-Vatican II Church

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Yes, it is Yves Congar. I copied the two quotes out of a book, so I don’t have a link for you. However, if you want to get a deeper understanding of what is happening to the Church I would recommend reading the book. The books is about 85% quotations from the movers and shakers of Vatican II. The book is Animus Delindi I (Desire to destroy), which documents their stated desire to destroy the Church. They believe that in destroying the Church, it will result in a resurrection of the Church. Therefore, they believe it is their job to destroy it - and that is what they are doing. The book is troubling to read, but very informative.
The reason I asked is because he is part of the “liberal theologian sect” that called for (& hi-jacked) the council. Along with Karl Rahner, Henri de Lubac, Hans Kung and Marie-Dominique Chenu,he was associated with an emerging school of thought called the** Nouvelle Théologie**, elements of which had been criticized in the encyclical Humani Generis of Pope Pius XII.

I’m wondering if you’ve read the book…& if this book, Animus Defendi, praises him & his cohorts. If so, I KNOW I don’t want to read it.l 😉
 
The reason I asked is because he is part of the “liberal theologian sect” that called for (& hi-jacked) the council. Along with Karl Rahner, Henri de Lubac, Hans Kung and Marie-Dominique Chenu,he was associated with an emerging school of thought called the** Nouvelle Théologie**, elements of which had been criticized in the encyclical Humani Generis of Pope Pius XII.

You are exactly right.
I’m wondering if you’ve read the book…& if this book, Animus Defendi, praises him & his cohorts. If so, I KNOW I don’t want to read it.l 😉
Yes I’ve read it, and no it doesn’t praise them at all. The author uses their own words in order to reveal their plans. The book is full of quotes from the people you mentioned and others. What the Church is going through begins to make sense when you see what their plans are in their own words.
 
It happend at a time of great chaos that began at Vatican II and picked up momentum after the Council closed. I would recommend reading the books The Rhine Flows into the Tiber for a historical account of what happened at the Council.

You might also be interesting in reading this letter sent to Paul VI by Fr. Depauw in August of 1967, in order to get an idea of the crisis in the Church following the Council.
I just read the letter from Fr. Depauw & all I can say is WOW!!!
 
It is probably just as well that I forgot to remember to check the “remember me” box and got logged out while posting a reply.

Let me be more succinct. First off, I really want to thank those of you who are far more knowledgeable than me about what happened in those years immediately after V II. I really do appreciate reading the astounding amount of documents. None of these were ever discussed in my Catholic boy’s high school in those years just after nor were they common knowledge out in the pews.

Instead of making this an intellectual endeavor, can’t we try instead to show what we miss from our hearts? DW and I can tell our adult sons about what it was like to grow up in HMC in the years before V II. Our sons grew up in a reverent cathedral parish but they have never seen a parish-wide May Crowning with Benediction. Indeed, they have been fortunate to experience Benediction once a year.

There is a whole lot more to being a “pre-Vatican II” Catholic than just liturgy. It was an entire mindset and culture which is in real danger of being lost. The “smells and bells” are important but the mindset and culture are equally important.

There was a very real and palpable difference between us and Protestants. Our kids think nothing of incorporating modern Protestant mega-church practices and ignore the fact that we are not Protestants. I regret what happened 45 years ago as much as any of you but I am with Fr. Z - one brick at a time.

We can never recapture the past. We can work to retain everything that made us CATHOLIC then and Le Bon Dieu knows that it was a whole lot more universal than it is today.

Let us talk from our hearts. There is so much more to being Catholic than just liturgy.
 
Fisheaters has a web page with lots of resources regarding Traditionalism, the "Spirit of Vatican II, the Liturgy, etc. There are a lot of very useful documents, essays, and resources on there for anyone who wants to learn more about the pre-Vatican II Church and Traditional Catholicism and how Traditional Catholics think.

The link:

fisheaters.com/forcatholics.html

Catholic Apologetics also has a lot of resources on this topic.

The link:

catholicapologetics.info/

Under ‘Topic’, Click ‘Modern Problems’ and then select from any number of categories that pop up under ‘What’s Your Question?’
 
One benefit of the 2nd Vatican Council is the awareness of the dignity of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Until Vatican II, the Eastern Catholic Churches were at worst unknown, at best second class step-children. At least Vatican II opened the vision and perspective of the Latin Church to it’s universal brothers in the East. Without this view, the Latin Church would not be aware of its Catholicity.
I think because of V2 the Eastern Churches, which are traditionally more orthodox in belief and practice, will be able to show the West how to be truly Catholic - not only Latin, but Catholic. This may hurt a little - change always does - but it will be for the better, since it is only by breathing fully with both lungs, East and West, that the entire Church Catholic can live how to be truly Catholic.
 
All that is true, but I can’t help but think about what I bolded above. I have always found it fascinating that the “movers and shakers” of the dreaded “spirit of Vatican II” (even typing that puts a bad taste in my mouth) were the vocations from the Pius XII years.
Yes but many of these priests were silenced by the Holy Office in the 1950s when Pius XII was still in charge
 
First of all, there is no “spirit of Vatican II.” That is the current excuse, the cover-up for what really happened.

In our Church, a new, smaller altar was brought in and it faced the people. The Mass was in English, we were told at the time to encourage a more full participation by the people. That’s IT.

Here was the problem. It was part internal but mainly external.

By 1960, The Pill became available. The primary attack would be leveled at women in general.

The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan is published. She calls the family a “comfortable concentration camp.”

People with a lot of money to lose knew that Humanae Vitae was coming from the Pope in 1968. Stable loving families with faithful parents had to be broken up. The idea of no sex before marriage had to be abolished. The idea of marriage itself had to be abolished. The sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake

The average Catholic was too naive and trusting when the Hippies showed up. Have sex with your girlfriend. Shack Up! Smoke dope! Just move in with your 'old lady." Who cares what anyone thinks?

1970s Throw in Adult Bookstores selling images of prostututes. It’s legal. Topless go-go bars. It’s legal. Swinging, wife swapping. Go ahead!

1973 Legalized abortion.

No priest or nun in our parish was dying for a guitar Mass or wearing a different type of habit.

The marketing machine was in full swing.

1978 “Sisters!! Throw off the chains of your oppression!” Men are the eternal enemy and you are the eternal victim. Solutions? No. Just warfare. Keep both parties highly suspicious of each other. Which made for fertile ground for…

1980s No-Fault Divorce.

People want to know what the Catholic Community was like prior to Vatican II? We lived out our faith every single day. No, everyone was not perfect. But after the radicals showed up, first people were confused and they decided to gradually care less and less as the media environment around them became more and more poisonous. They began to let little things slide, then bigger and bigger things. Being holy became less of a possibility, or so some began to think.

This process took years. The poison was injected gradually so we wouldn’t feel too much pain or embarrassment or guilt. And that was the goal. To remove even the idea that there was such a thing as personal restraint in speech or dress or behavior. Talk as dirty as you want, dress like a street walker, disrespect your parents. Dating has become sex. And sex between two single people has turned into “just sex.”

The pre-Vatican II Church, the people, were obedient, good neighbors, friendly, hospitable, modest and otherwise restrained. That is what needs to be restored. The day to day behavior that lives out the truths of our faith. Not copying the world which doesn’t think twice about hearing the filthiest things coming out of their TV, or seeing “porn stars” in teen magazines or singers dressed like hookers on the cover of a checkout magazine. Or tolerating porn being sold at the gas station or convenience store.

I heard Father Ricardo on Catholic Radio. He said Vatican II did encourage the laity to stand up for and promulgate our beliefs among the people. Each Catholic has as our mission, a missionary role among our friends, coworkers and anyone we happened to meet. That message was lost among the “wonderful” changes promised by the Woodstock Generation. Peace? Love? No. What we got was love turned into sex, confusion and certainly not peace.

By 1970, certain religious began leaving the Church. By the 1970s, the seminaries were not correctly treaching new priests about what contraception was really all about.

That’s changing now. It will change further the more each one of us rejects the evils I’ve just mentioned. When we reject the X-Treme world that knows very few limits and claims there is no black and white, just grey. Where no one can really decide on right and wrong.

Stop listening to the world, brothers and sisters. Especially today. There is too little that is good out there. Cultivate virtue and if a thing have any virtue, think on those things.

Peace,
Ed
 
You see, that’s what confused me, that date. I NEVER remember a Latin Mass growing up. I must have been six or seven. I was very young at that time, my sister filled in some blanks for me.
My parents were dead set against the changes in the Church at that time in our local parish. For a long time, they simply stopped going to Mass. We kids still went (it was within walking distance). This continued until the mid 70s when they started going to a small chapel in the south side of Pittsburgh started by a group of working class Catholics who simply wanted a Latin Mass. We were blessed with a wonderful old retired priest, Fr. Leo Fredricks. He sat at our table more than a few times.
Our Lady of Fatima Parish. They moved in the middle 90’s to Carneigie.
 
I heard Father Ricardo on Catholic Radio. He said Vatican II did encourage the laity to stand up for and promulgate our beliefs among the people. Each Catholic has as our mission, a missionary role among our friends, coworkers and anyone we happened to meet. That message was lost among the “wonderful” changes promised by the Woodstock Generation. Peace? Love? No. What we got was love turned into sex, confusion and certainly not peace.
Peace,
Ed
Good post. But I want to focus in on this paragraph.
As a young man I retained my parents conservative principles, but the religion I belonged to ***appeared *** not to be doing that. I saw, for example, very few of my fellow Catholics becoming active in the pro-life movement. But Jerry Falwell was. Thus began my 20 year journey across the Tiber.
This is where we need to listen to those evangelicals who speak of a ‘personal relationship’. I know there are problems with that philosophy, but it resonated with a young man who refused to be nominal.
We need a living, vibrant Catholicsm.
 
Good post. But I want to focus in on this paragraph.
As a young man I retained my parents conservative principles, but the religion I belonged to ***appeared *** not to be doing that. I saw, for example, very few of my fellow Catholics becoming active in the pro-life movement. But Jerry Falwell was. Thus began my 20 year journey across the Tiber.
This is where we need to listen to those evangelicals who speak of a ‘personal relationship’. I know there are problems with that philosophy, but it resonated with a young man who refused to be nominal.
We need a living, vibrant Catholicsm.
It’s not just a philosophy and I agree with you. What does God say about being lukewarm in the Bible? He would rather that we were hot or cold. Father Ricardo was speaking to a Catholic men’s group and he told them: “Do something.”

Starting in the late 1960s, the media culture around us morphed, very gradually, from “those words you can’t say on TV” to gradually getting around to saying some of them by the late 1990s and all of them today.

You see, Catholics like myself did not mind the occasional risque or off color joke or situation, especially on TV in the 1970s. We thought at least part of the media had retained some of its values. But we went from the Wonderful World of Disney, Ozzie & Harriet and I Love Lucy to what? Two and a Half Men?

You also should know that during all those decades, the academics and lawyers were arguing for “freedom of speech” and “freedom of expression.” After all, they argued, a stripper was just expressing herself. The same with pornography. Freedom of the press. Any kind of self-control, even for individuals, was argued against. It’s bad, it’s wrong, to tell anybody what to do. Even your own kids. How many parents today, just feed, diaper, clothe, put through school and at 18, eject them from the home? While providing only nominal guidance during the process?

This happened gradually over a 40 year period. TV became a mild addiction. The thing you automatically turned on and watched in a trance-like state after work. What was once a common, shared community experience of cohesive neighborhoods and good neighbors gradually turned into radical individualism. “Leave me alone! Nobody can tell me what to do.” Fine. But people, and communities, generally do badly without shared values, even if they all don’t go to the same Church. The radical abortionists made it a point to let people see a pro-abortion protestor yelling: “Keep your beliefs off my body!”

You see? Anyone who firmly believed something was wrong was trying to impose their values. You know what? In the absence of “those values,” no values have taken their place. Or as one divorced performer said of his current situation: “I do my thing and she does her thing and sometimes we do our thing together.”

Foundational truth.

Actual committment.

And knowing that faith without works is dead. There’s more than putting in your hour in Church every Sunday, especially if you actually live like an agnostic the rest of the time.

Look at some of the posts here. God? What God? And what’s up with that holy book of yours? We’ve got some ancient mythology to compare it to.

The immersive media environment, as it exists today, is a bad influence in general for people who are uneducated and unsophisticated, and especially for those Catholics who do not truly understand what our faith teaches. Too many think that the media is not out to hurt me, when in fact, there are production meetings for the next season of Dexter, that lovable serial killer. I mean, you would think that people would… uh… notice when a Serial Killer is the ‘hero’ of the show. But, after all, he only kills ‘bad’ people – whatever the word ‘bad’ might mean.

Pray to God to guide you. There’s plenty to do.

Peace,
Ed
 
I would not like to turn the clock back to how it was. Many Catholics were first or second generation Americans. We were still bound by ethnic and religious restraints. I am not talking about the moral code but about the clannishness of people of different ethnic backgrounds. For example a good German American boy would never marry and Irish American girl or if he did his family would shun him and his bride. Marrying outside the Faith, which I still feel is not a good idea, was quite uncommon. Catholics did not mix to any great extents with non-Catholics. Going to swim in the YMCA pool was considered dangerous to ones faith. Public schools had just barely started to move away from teaching from the KJV of the bible in class. One could count the number of divorced people in a small town on one hand( I am not a proponent of divorce.).

A good Catholic adult would not make a moral decision without consulting “Father.” Having a religious education based solely on the first, second, and maybe third version of the Baltimore Catechism did not equip many people with the knowledge required to make moral distinctions and decisions. The old saw of the laity only paying, praying, and obeying when it came to the Church was quite true. Is society in a mess today? Yes, it surely is, in part due to the fact that today’s adults never gained the knowledge to make good moral decisions. When the obey part of the lay faith life fell by the wayside, many were like hot house flowers stuck out in the cold.

A lot of religious practices like the Rosary, Way of the Cross, Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Our Lady of Perpetual Help Devotions, May Crowning, Forty Hours of Devotion, etc. were very popular before Vatican II and the New Order Mass. They were very popular partially because they were in the vernacular. In my opinion, after the Council, they were downgraded and neglected by the clergy in order to force the laity to focus on the vernacular Mass. Some of them are regaining a spot in peoples hearts, but it i still an up-hill struggle. It is a blessing that reading and praying the Bible has become very popular in many households. That was not the case before the Council, when most household Bibles collected dust on the shwelf or coffee table if they were displayed at all.

Also in my opinion, as Catholics, before the Council we had a much greater consciousness of how sinful many of us really are. We were somewhat guilt ridden, but I find the opposite extreme that we have today also not very healthy.I am seventy-four years old and I think many of our younger people have been and are being short changed when it comes to teaching them and introducing them to the richness of our Catholic faith.
 
Once again, Vatican II did not influence people to think they were less sinful, the outside world did. What did I hear in the late 1960s? “You know what the problem is with you Catholics? You’re sexually repressed!”

What was dating like “back then”? It wasn’t ‘just sex.’ You went out, got to know each other. Maybe it didn’t work out. You met somebody else. You went steady. You talked about having kids and getting married. You visited her parents, she visited your parents. The odds of marrying an axe murderer or a lazy bum were greatly reduced by this process. My close friend went to ask his future father in law if he could marry his daughter. His future father in law, having once been young and a little unbalanced by hormones, asked my friend a lot of practical questions to make him understand what being married meant. What was wrong with that?

Vatican II is the scapegoat for the perverts who wanted to have sex with anybody, for the people who made the Birth Control Pill so people could avoid pregnancy. These people “freaked out” when they saw Humanae Vitae coming. Oh yeah. A priest posted here some months ago about a meeting he was in back then. Another priest was trying to convince him to sign a protest letter against Humanae Vitae. He refused.

Before Vatican II, we Catholics thought about God and sin and our behavior all of the time. At least people had Family Bibles. Today?

Yes, there were certain ethnic problems but I knew plenty of guys who were not Irish looking for and marrying Irish girls.

What was on the TV back then? There were shows that reflected our Christian values and they were not X-Treme. Ed Sullivan, Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie & Harriet. We knew those people were actors, but we could relate to them. What were the movies about? Boy meets girl, fall in love, get married. Normal. Stable. Today? Boy meets girl, hop in the sack, and now we’re a couple? Then the girl finds out the guy’s a real creep or addicted to drugs or gambling. On TV, it’s worse. Two good looking, educated young people get together and have ‘just sex.’ Meaningless.

If you want your life to have meaning, you make promises and keep them. You respect the woman’s virtue, you don’t take advantage of it or lead her into scandal. But what’s scandalous anymore? Some of these celebrities have no modesty. They scandalize themselves. It’s very sad. As one dying man said to another: “You’re dying and you don’t fear God?”

There was a healthy fear of God. Now? I heard a priest on Catholic Radio. He said too many Catholics are living like Agnostics today. Did Vatican II cause this? No.

Peace,
Ed
 
I remember it when I was a kid and I could not adjust to it for some reason. The novus ordo I can adjust to well for some reason. I don’t know if I could go back to something like this but The next best thing is the internet.
 
I’d like to piggyback off of jp72’s initial post. I was born in 1961 and really have no proper memory of the pre-Vatican II Church. I have a few questions as will.
  1. What were the instances of liturgical abuse in the pre-Vatican II Church?
  2. Was the pre-Vatican II Church beset with just as much modernism and liberalism as we see today?
  3. Do traditional Catholics today resemble the same Catholics of the pre-Vatican II Church?
  1. None
  2. No
  3. Mostly
 
Perhaps pre-V2 days were the “hight” of the Church in the US, but that’s not the impression I get from where I now live - Portugal. Many people seemed to be indifferent to the Mass, mostly because it was in Latin and they did not understand it. There was an outward respect for the Church, but that seems to be mostly because there was a cultural Catholicism. People went to Mass and whatnot, but that did not stop them from being badly catechized, rebelious towards the clergy, engaging in superstitious practices which they saw compatible with the Faith… The list goes on and on. And I’m not talking about my parents’ generation (born in the 40’s): I’m talking about my grandparents’ and my great-grandparents’ generations and the stories that I have come to know through them.
You will forgive me, but I cannot believe in some golden pre-V2 days, as if that council was the source of all that is wrong with the Church currently. Things were already not good, already festering for a long time; the council perhaps served as a catalyst to bring these problems to the surface.
 
There was an outward respect for the Church, but that seems to be mostly because there was a cultural Catholicism. People went to Mass and whatnot, but that did not stop them from being badly catechized, rebelious towards the clergy, engaging in superstitious practices which they saw compatible with the Faith… The list goes on and on.
Well that may be true but those negative things are probably still the case today and today there is no longer even that outward respect, cultural Catholicism and mass attendence.

I’m curious though is the 1940 Concordat between the Holy See and Portugal still existing? Since I hope it is not another one of the treaties favorable to the Church that liberals in the Church washed away due to the spirit of Vatican II.
 
I’m curious though is the 1940 Concordat between the Holy See and Portugal still existing? Since I hope it is not another one of the treaties favorable to the Church that liberals in the Church washed away due to the spirit of Vatican II.
Is that the one pertaining to marriage? If so, then yes, it is still valid. Actually someone brought that up yesterday at a book-release; homosexual “marriage” was approved last week, and the book was about why it shouldn’t be considered (the book is cleverly entitled “Why Not”).
 
Edwest and other have hit the culture nail on the head.👍 I think these are quotes tell us what we are seeing. As the Church activist and liberals told us we had to have the Priest turn away from the Alter and Tabernacle and face the people. They told us we had to do away with all the traditions so we could be more inviting to the modern world and have a big & open tent.:rolleyes:

Karl Marx - “People separated from their history are easily persuaded.”

Milan Kundera - “The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was.”
 
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