Warned about abuse, Vatican failed to defrock priest [NYT]

[kelvinf]

The gospel reading of last Sunday
Jn 8:1-11:

Jesus…
Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman
who had been caught in adultery
and made her stand in the middle.
They said to him,
“Teacher, this woman was caught
in the very act of committing adultery.
Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women.
So what do you say?”
…
“Let the one among you who is without sin
be the first to throw a stone at her.”…
So he was left alone with the woman before him.
Then Jesus straightened up and said to her,
“Woman, where are they?
Has no one condemned you?”
She replied, “No one, sir.”
Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you.
Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

During homily last Sunday, our priest talked about the recent scandals in the church while making some references to the above passage. Because of language issues, I did not quite understand everything and couldn’t draw a conclusion from what he was trying to say.

But from my perspective, the above passage is very clear.
For me, it’s not that easy to report certain cases as some people might think.
Being the first to throw the stone is not an easy decision to make.

To the best of my knowledge, there are existing measures today to prevent such incidents from happening again.

I just want to bring up something else. I strongly believe that minors also have a major role to play in preventing such incidents. Babies cry when they are hungry or in an uncomfortable situation. Children/minors also do cry or complain when they are in pain or in certain uncomfortable/unfavourable situations.
Parents do discipline / blame their children/minors for wrong doing.

One day when I was walking home alone during the day (when I was a kid), there was someone suspiciously nearing me from behind. When he was just too close to me, I just started running and screaming. My parents and neighbours quickly came out (I was just a couple of seconds away from home). The suspicious person behind me vanished.

Don’t children/minors also have responsibilities (to scream / report certain cases)? Or shouldn’t children/minors be educated to act responsibly in certain circumstances?

 

[whatevergirl]

Victims of child abuse, are usually so afraid to cry out, because their offendors threaten them or their family members, with harm if they tell or scream…thus, the reason many of these people spoke up until years or decades later. Victims of sexual abuse are not to be held responsible for these crimes. Now, we have much more education, and sadly, we must teach our kids that if a priest or teacher or boy scout leader or whoeever wants to see you alone…you say no, and tell mom or dad about it. But back then? No one would have ever suspected a priest would be doing anything remotely like what has been reported. I am still reeling.

 

[anode]

I CANNOT believe that higher-ups in the Vatican didn’t know a LOT about the pedophilia and its cover up. I think that they were keeping quiet for the sake of the ‘church’ and the ‘greater good’.

The ‘promotion’ of Bernard Law was a huge insult to the American church and to the archdiocese of Boston.

 

[anode]

The gospel reading of last Sunday
Jn 8:1-11:

During homily last Sunday, our priest talked about the recent scandals in the church while making some references to the above passage. Because of language issues, I did not quite understand everything and couldn’t draw a conclusion from what he was trying to say.

But from my perspective, the above passage is very clear.
For me, it’s not that easy to report certain cases as some people might think.
Being the first to throw the stone is not an easy decision to make.

To the best of my knowledge, there are existing measures today to prevent such incidents from happening again.

I just want to bring up something else. I strongly believe that minors also have a major role to play in preventing such incidents. Babies cry when they are hungry or in an uncomfortable situation. Children/minors also do cry or complain when they are in pain or in certain uncomfortable/unfavourable situations.
Parents do discipline / blame their children/minors for wrong doing.

One day when I was walking home alone during the day (when I was a kid), there was someone suspiciously nearing me from behind. When he was just too close to me, I just started running and screaming. My parents and neighbours quickly came out (I was just a couple of seconds away from home). The suspicious person behind me vanished.

Don’t children/minors also have responsibilities (to scream / report certain cases)? Or shouldn’t children/minors be educated to act responsibly in certain circumstances?

I respect you and your reasonable-sounding post, but you are wrong.

This is not just *any *sin. We are all sinful. We all do things we later regret, sometimes deeply. But most of us don’t do anything like this. At first, men were very reluctant to come forward and ‘cast the first stone’ . By the time they did come forward, that first stone was long overdue, after thousands had been abused and their lives ruined. After a massive cover up at all levels.

Another point: only recently have minors been heard at all. It takes a lot for a child to come forward. In the old pre-Vat II church, which I, being old, distinctly remember, priests and religious were unassailable. NO ONE questioned or challenged them–it was probably a mortal sin to do so. Read what others have written about the teaching of chastity for girls! If a boy came forward, he would be accused of LYING and/or TEMPTING the priest. it would have been his fault, like women and girls were accused of causing their own rapes.

 

[spn82756]

The ‘promotion’ of Bernard Law was a huge insult to the American church and to the archdiocese of Boston.

Absolutely! He was cardinal in my backyard!

 

[dixieagle]

I just want to bring up something else. I strongly believe that minors also have a major role to play in preventing such incidents. Babies cry when they are hungry or in an uncomfortable situation. Children/minors also do cry or complain when they are in pain or in certain uncomfortable/unfavourable situations.
Parents do discipline / blame their children/minors for wrong doing.

One day when I was walking home alone during the day (when I was a kid), there was someone suspiciously nearing me from behind. When he was just too close to me, I just started running and screaming. My parents and neighbours quickly came out (I was just a couple of seconds away from home). The suspicious person behind me vanished.

Don’t children/minors also have responsibilities (to scream / report certain cases)? Or shouldn’t children/minors be educated to act responsibly in certain circumstances?

These are children or vulnerable adolescents we’re talking about!!!

Sadly, many victims of many priests over the years did muster up the courage to tell their parents…who refused to believe what they were saying because it was about a priest.

Of course children should be taught common-sense precautions, but they are children, and these were priests whom, they had been taught, were in persona Christi.

Shifting even an iota of blame to the victims is unconscionable.

 

[spn82756]

These are children or vulnerable adolescents we’re talking about!!!

Sadly, many victims of many priests over the years did muster up the courage to tell their parents…who refused to believe what they were saying because it was about a priest.

Of course children should be taught common-sense precautions, but they are children, and these were priests whom, they had been taught, were in persona Christi.

Shifting even an iota of blame to the victims is unconscionable.

It’s kind of liking blaming the woman for being raped because she looked beautiful.

 

[Sonic]

What are *you *saying? That the pope, if he’s found to be complicit, should be beyond the reach of this thing? If he played a part in covering up abuse, he *should *step down.

If the Pope was directly involved in the covering up and did absolutely zero to stop it or bring anyone to justice then he should be required to stop down, and I agree with that too. I can’t think of one reason why he shouldn’t be required.

Both of you have brought up the notion of some sort of Papal abdication. I’m wondering if you both know that that could lead to worse problems within the church. Ultimately, it could lead to an Antipope and a schism… which in turn would weaken the authority of the church to fix the problems and resulting in more abuses.

Perhaps you should read up on the Western Schism…

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Western_Schism

 

[silentstar]

It’s kind of liking blaming the woman for being raped because she looked beautiful.

Or b/c she was “ugly.” that is another totally b.s. “excuse” some rapists have.

by the way, am I the only one who is especially outraged b/c the victims were Deaf? People with disabilities have more rights and get more respect now than they used to even 25 or 30 years ago. For example there is the Americans with Disabilities Act which became law in 1990.

It was hard enough for victims in general to come forward. Being a victim with a disability was even harder. Children with disabilities are often taught to be dependent on adults who care for them and sometimes this leads to them not being taken seriously when they report abuse.

I know there is a lot of room for improvement regarding disability rights but I think the situation is much better than before. And the Catholic Church’s strong concern for people with disabilities is one of the things I like best about it. That is why I am especially outraged at hearing about this.

My husband’s aunt, who was a nun, and his mother worked at a school for the Deaf for decades. Unfortunately in the past it was not always felt by everyone that Deaf people deserved the same rights that hearing people have. That may impact why the civil authorities did so little. At any rate I think the secular authorities (police etc.) did not handle this well at all.

All abuse is bad including abuse of able-bodied children (which included me) but it just really burns me that someone would treat so many Deaf children this badly. I can’t speak to whether I think he repented at the end of his life b/c I don’t know that much about his feelings at that time.

 

[sidbrown]

If you know that someone has committed a serious crime, then it seems to me like it would only be right to turn a criminal into the police for civil justice?

 

[dixieagle]

by the way, am I the only one who is especially outraged b/c the victims were Deaf? People with disabilities have more rights and get more respect now than they used to even 25 or 30 years ago. For example there is the Americans with Disabilities Act which became law in 1990.

I, also, think that - as bad as any abuse of children is - it was especially disgusting that a priest would take advantage of children with disabilities.

 

[Corki]

It is my understanding that the Catholic church considers pedophilia by priests on the same level as a priest sleeping with an adult woman who gives consent. I understand the church considers all sexual crimes as pretty much the same, a sin against chastity. The secular world considers pedophilia much worse. I doubt they will let this go.

Prove it! (you can’t)

 

[dixieagle]

If you know that someone has committed a serious crime, then it seems to me like it would only be right to turn a criminal into the police for civil justice?

It seems such a simple, obvious thing, doesn’t it? Apparently it wasn’t as obvious to some, sadly.

 

[spn82756]

If you know that someone has committed a serious crime, then it seems to me like it would only be right to turn a criminal into the police for civil justice?

Sidbrown! How are ya? We agree!

 

[Zatzat]

They want to smear Pope Benedict XVI because his office did not put a dying, professedly repentant man on a trial where he could not defend himself due to infirmity.

You do realize that this " repentant" man was a suspected child molester?

Anyway, I read the story and found it to be fair and balanced. How could the New York times have put a positive spin on the inaction of the Catholic Church in how it dealt with a priest who was suspected of child molestation?

Thou dost protest too much.

 

[Zatzat]

Don’t children/minors also have responsibilities (to scream / report certain cases)? Or shouldn’t children/minors be educated to act responsibly in certain circumstances?

How could you possibly hold this opinion?

Your suggesting that;

Children have the responsibility of not getting sexually abused?

The children need to act in a way that doesn’t get them raped by a Pedophile?
:tsktsk:

 

[Sonic]

Originally Posted by mlund

Thou dost protest too much?

Disagreeing with Mlund is one thing, but insinuating that she participated in the scandal is just wrong. :tsktsk:

 

[silentstar]

How could you possibly hold this opinion?

Your suggesting that;

Children have the responsibility of not getting sexually abused?

The children need to act in a way that doesn’t get them raped by a Pedophile?
:tsktsk:

And there are practical considerations.

sometimes children are taken by surprise and the abuse starts before they realize anything bad was happening

sometimes abuse occurs in rural areas or inside buildings where no one else is around so even if the child screams, there is no one except the abuser to hear him or her.

sometimes children are taught to obey trusted adults and even though they have the feeling that something bad is happening, they have been taught to obey and this prevents fighting back.

many times, children fear for their lives b/c abuse or threatened abuse is frightening. some people freeze and they are not able to move, literally, much less run away. and they want the abuse to end as soon as possible and their focus is on survival.

some abusers come prepared with weapons which generally makes any resistance ineffective.

some people who are abused as teenagers were victims of prior abuse at a younger age and they have never been taught that their bodies are their own so they don’t really understand they have a right to protest.

and some parents are not supportive. there are families where children don’t have decent food to eat or decent medical care, let alone emotional care. children may try protesting to their parents in situations such as this, only to find the parents don’t listen.

and I truly believe that many abusers look for children who are vulnerable, such as in bad family situations. or children with physical or emotional problems. I myself was told I was “crazy” - an abuser incorrectly “diagnosed” me with childhood schizophrenia which was untrue (although I later developed bipolar disorder) and there are abusers who will pick on those who are viewed as “weak” or “weird” or vulnerable.

 

[spn82756]

Thou dost protest too much?

Disagreeing with Mlund is one thing, but insinuating that she participated in the scandal is just wrong. :tsktsk:

Geesh…I don’t think that’s what he was saying. I just think he was saying that mlund was defending the actions of the church too much. That’s all.

 

[Zatzat]

Thou dost protest too much?

Disagreeing with Mlund is one thing, but insinuating that she participated in the scandal is just wrong. :tsktsk:

:bigyikes:

What did I write that could possibly have caused you to believe that I insinuated that the OP took part in the scandal???