S
- Status
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear John,
Cordial greetings and good to see you again. Hope all is well.
Jolly well said old chap. Father Amorth warned parents against the Potter books in an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency. He said quite bluntly, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”. He never said that Rowling was possessed, nor did he imply that the Devil held her pen-hand as the books were written, only that many of the ideas expressed in them were from the realm of darkness. Moreover, he explained that the books contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the Satanic art”, and attempt to draw a false distinction between black and white magic, when in fact no such distinction exists “because magic is always recourse to the Devil”. Furthermore, he also criticized the disordered morality presented in Rowling’s works, which he believes strongly reinforces moral relativism.
Many of us believe that a man who has had decades of experience in directly combating evil, deserves to be listened to, since if any man can detect unwholesome and dark elements in a book then he surely can, for that is his area of expertise. Evidently, his comments respecting Potter were not welcome because coverage of his warnings were significantly downplayed. It seems men do not wish to hear the truth, even when it comes from a reliable and sound source.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
P
Portrait
Guest
J
jilly4ski
Guest
Portrait, I didn’t respond to the book charge, because like I said I am not a huge fan, so I don’t go looking for outside sources about the HP series. But still, even if it is true that kids could google the subjects and find real occult stuff, I am not sure why that is a major point for you. First parents, especially Catholic parents, should be monitoring their children online, second, how many children actually do this, and third they would be just as likely to run into that stuff or worse stuff (ie Porn IMO) doing research for school or playing games.
Undefined power? The power that the individuals have is an innate power, thus given by the creator or genes (religion or supreme beings are not discussed in HP, indeed most fiction ignores that particular topic). However, HP does deal with eternal consequences for our actions. Murder tears the soul, there are unforgivable curses, etc.
I still don’t see the difference between the magic in LOTRs and HP. Gandalf, does magic similarly to those in HP do magic. And I still cannot see the similarities between “real magic” and the magic in HP, just like the magic in LOTRs does not represent “real magic.” No one has shown the pagan representation of magic in HP.
Undefined power? The power that the individuals have is an innate power, thus given by the creator or genes (religion or supreme beings are not discussed in HP, indeed most fiction ignores that particular topic). However, HP does deal with eternal consequences for our actions. Murder tears the soul, there are unforgivable curses, etc.
I still don’t see the difference between the magic in LOTRs and HP. Gandalf, does magic similarly to those in HP do magic. And I still cannot see the similarities between “real magic” and the magic in HP, just like the magic in LOTRs does not represent “real magic.” No one has shown the pagan representation of magic in HP.
No this is not what I said, and you obviously misunderstood, since you have no first hand knowledge of the subject I assume we will run into this often). Magic is an innate skill/power that only some have, not all humans in HP. If you don’t have it you will never get it. There is no unlocking of that power, it is either there or not. The reason the witches or wizards must learn about the power, is that otherwise they might hurt someone by not being able to control their power. That is why only some people go to the magic schools, and why there are sqibs (people born of magical families but have no magical gift).
umm Magic in the hands of Gandalf (and others of his order) is a morally neutral power that might be used for good or evil (ie Gandalf and Saruman) which they choose their own path. Again I fail to see the differences.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dearly beloved brethren,
Before I take my leave tonight, I leave the following thoughts for you to ponder upon:
In his book, *An Exorcist Tells his Story *(Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1999), Father Amorth warns that modern man is loosing his sense of the reality of supernatural evil. As a result, he says, many have made themselves more vulnerable to the infuence of evil spirits who seek to corrupt and destroy souls. Father Amorth does not hesitate to say that *cultural *influences such as film, TV, music and books play no small part in the lowering of spiritual vigilance, "I was able personally to verify how great is the influence of these tools of Satan on the young. It is unbelievable how widespread are witchcraft and spiritism, in all their forms, in middle and high school. This evil is everywhere, even in small towns (pp. 53-54). He emphasizes that, knowingly or unknowingly, the practioner of magic always exposes himself to diabolic influence; “Directly or indirectly, witchcraft is a cult of Satan”. Surely Harry Potter interfaces just too closely with the actual world of witchcraft and all its attendant evil, which was why Father Amorth denounced it in the strongest terms - “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”.
May God bless you all.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
Before I take my leave tonight, I leave the following thoughts for you to ponder upon:
In his book, *An Exorcist Tells his Story *(Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1999), Father Amorth warns that modern man is loosing his sense of the reality of supernatural evil. As a result, he says, many have made themselves more vulnerable to the infuence of evil spirits who seek to corrupt and destroy souls. Father Amorth does not hesitate to say that *cultural *influences such as film, TV, music and books play no small part in the lowering of spiritual vigilance, "I was able personally to verify how great is the influence of these tools of Satan on the young. It is unbelievable how widespread are witchcraft and spiritism, in all their forms, in middle and high school. This evil is everywhere, even in small towns (pp. 53-54). He emphasizes that, knowingly or unknowingly, the practioner of magic always exposes himself to diabolic influence; “Directly or indirectly, witchcraft is a cult of Satan”. Surely Harry Potter interfaces just too closely with the actual world of witchcraft and all its attendant evil, which was why Father Amorth denounced it in the strongest terms - “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of darkness, the Devil”.
May God bless you all.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
J
JHow
Guest
Potrait:
Hello Again! (I recall our discussion on rock music elsewhere). Please take the advice of others here and read the Potter books. Your description above of how magic works in “Potter-Land” is simply incorrect. The chief trope in Potter is to posit what magic would be like if ordinary people had access to it, and more specifically, what would it be like if you had to go to a boarding school to learn it. There is no deeper thought here. The magic in Rowling is the magic of mythology abd literary sources: philosopher’s stones, flying carpets updated to cars, centaurs, flying brooms (I challenge the wiccans to produce one!), potions in Potter bear greater resemblance to chemistry lab than to alchemy. The wizard characters are absolutely ordinary: smart, boring, silly, good and yes, some are evil. But at its core, magic in potter is mechanical, Rowling just assumes it exists in her world and drags in magical things from largely literary sources.
There is no orgin. If I had to guess, I woiuld say the Rowling herself has no thougts of magic, other than as it exists in stories. The critique of astrology, “divination class”, fortune-telling in the book is aboslutely hilarious. It is clear she regards this stuff (as do all the thoughtful characters in the book) as nonsense. The Sybill P. Trelawney character is comic relief.
The power of magic in Potter is simply assigned (apparently pretty randomly) at birth, some people can work it, some can’t, all have to study and practice to get anywhere with it at all. Just like some people have the talent to play piano or violin, and others never will, but to get good at either you have to work at it. It serves as a literary device to carry the story, but magic is morally neutral, bad and good characters alike wield it.
Rowling borrows from the literary world, as do the “real” witches. They of neccessity have the same roots - myth, legend, story.
Which works do you have in mind here? “Hogwarts a History”? “Care and Feeding of Magical Creatures”?
If presented in a pagan fashion, then magic would have some deep significance, it would be the “real” foundation of Potter-World, but that is not the case, Potter’s world is our world - inhabited with people like us, only some of those people (not necessarily the best brightest, or more superior ones, either) can use magic.
I have only read the Hobbit and LOTR so I am not that well versed on the more “theoretical” Tolkien works, but Potter magic is nothing like the magic of the ring. Magic in Tolkien is bound up in the fate of the world. Magic in Potter is just a given. It is the backdrop for the story. Voldemort is not evil because he has made a pact with dark forces - he’s evil because he’s the villain - and like most everyone else in the story, he can use magic.
Yes, this theme is present in Tolkien, that those who try to use the ring may find that they become its servant rather than the other way around. Tolkien takes this idea and builds a world around it, but it too, is a literary idea at its bottom. And yes, this moral is not present in Rowling, but it doesn’t need to be, since Rowlings magic is really mechanical at its root. Some of the most inventive pieces of Rowling are things like “Quidditch”, to which you will no corrolary in the “real” world of witchcraft. No child (with the slightest bit of sense) is likely to believe that he can really fly on a broomstick, as fun as it might be to pretend otherwise.
Well, read the books. Evil is defeated in Potter, by his willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends. The moral lessons that are taught in Potter are human ones.
Magic in Potter is mechanical. It works like this: Step 1. Assume people can fly on brooms, Step 2. If these people are anything like the people I know, they will do it badly until they get some lessons, Step 3. Imagine if the Dept. of Motor Vehicles had to certify you to fly on a broom, what would the bureaucracy be like… and so on. There is no grand theory of magic here.
This bit is just wrong. Read the book.
How much freedom do we lose saving the hypothetical "single lost child’?
J
JHow
Guest
Most of these Fr. Amorth references to Potter I find are fairly old, around 2001 or so. The entire series (and the end of the story) was not complete at that time. Rowling has always said that the idea for the entire series was in her mind from the beginning - how it would start and how it would end. Fr. Amorth is entitled to his opinion, but I wonder how much he actually read and whether he considered the entire story in making his assessment?
E
estesbob
Guest
I used to think that all this concern about Harry Potter was nonsense until I accidentally turned my wife into a ferret the other night. Took me two days to find the counterspell.
I now believe that Harry Potter is the most insidiously evil series since the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.
B
BlueShadow123
Guest
I think the exorcist movies were well shot. Its scary to think those things actually happen and have happened.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Thank you as well for engaging us in this thread.
Do you realize that The Chronicles of Narnia juxtapose “white magic” and “black magic” as well?
In Prince Caspian, for instance, it is considered evil when the dwarf Nikabrik wants to call up the soul of the White Witch, but it is considered good when Caspian X summons the Golden Age kings and queens of Narnia with a magical horn.
In the same novel, it is not presented as morally problematic that the centaur Glenstorm - a good guy - uses astrology to predict that the regime of the evil king Miraz will soon come to an end.
Why don’t you have a problem with Lewis’ series?
No, it’s not. Were you not listening, Portrait, when I just told you that the film version of the fifth Harry Potter book explicitly has one of the villains - a most evil, despicable character, Dolores Umbridge - claim that the ends justify the means? The choice to give those words to her character sends a very clear message that such a moral philosophy is ethically repugnant.
And as for the magic, please watch the first two minutes of this clip from the film of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. You’ll see that the “magic” in Harry Potter has no resemblance to anything real whatsoever, let alone anything occult. It’s more like a Star Wars Jedi duel than anything even remotely real.
Generality gets us nowhere. We need to talk specifics. Please address the specific arguments I’ve made. I want your responses to the specific arguments that I made above:
(1) good magic vs. evil magic in Prince Caspian (Susan’s horn vs. necromancy)
(2) Positive portrayal of astrology in Prince Caspian (Glenstorm the centaur)
(3) Whether you can watch the first two minutes of the video I linked to and then tell me with a straight face that Harry Potter features “occult magic”
If you continue spouting generalities on which you’ve been corrected time and time again without responding to our corrections which we’ve justified with specific examples, then you no longer have the right to complain when you face ridicule. Do you understand that? To state once that the Harry Potter series features the occult may be an innocent mistake. But to persist in it obstinately is just wrong. Yes, whether the series is good or not is a matter of opinion. You needn’t remind me. But whether it contains occult practices is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact, and you are in the wrong. You have no credibility here unless you admit it - or provide specific examples to back up your claims.
I await your response. Also:
Precisely. Harry Potter fits into this framework as well, since “witches” and “wizards” in the series are a completely different kind of human being with inborn (i.e. God-given) magical abilities. Harry Potter is a “wizard” the way Gandalf is a “wizard,” and ordinary humans in Rowling’s world can no more do “magic” than ordinary humans in Tolkien’s world.
This reply crosses the line into nigh inexcusable arrogance. Your replies reveal that you haven’t a clue about the Harry Potter novels, so let me explain something to you: the claim that the series is Christian children’s fantasy in the tradition of The Chronicles of Narnia has been articulated most clearly and definitively by John Granger, some of whose books I have read, and who supports his position with specific passages from the books, analyses of their structure, interviews with Rowling herself, etc.
The assertion you made in the above paragraph is based on your own ignorance. To be frank, I have far more respect for the position of those who think Narnia promotes the occult too. They’re out there. Google “Narnia white magic vs. black magic” if you don’t believe me. These people are at least consistent. You are not.
If you wish to argue otherwise, start by responding to something solid: the three arguments I made above and clearly marked for you.
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Everyone needs to realize what I’ve just realized.
Because I’ve read both pro-Potter Christian literary critics - like John Granger - and anti-Potter critics, like Michael O’Brien, I recognize their words.
And everyone needs to know that much of Portrait’s replies are wholesale paragraphs lifted from anti-Potter critics. In particular, Portrait’s claim that “while Rowling posits the “good” use of occult powers against their misuse, thus imparting to her sub-creation an apparent aura of morality, the cumulative effect is to shift our understanding of the battle lines between good and evil” - is basically O’Brien’s words verbatim.
Elsewhere, in Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture, O’Brien writes, “the most serious problem is the author’s use of the symbol-world of the occult as her primary metaphor, and occultic activities as the dramatic engine of the plots.” Does that sound familiar to anyone? Oh, that’s right, Portrait basically plagiarized this sentence in the section I quoted above.
I have no idea how many of Portrait’s other words are actually his or her own, but it’s only fair that everyone who wants to continue dialoguing with him/her know that it’ll probably be a challenge to get Portrait to do anything but regurgitate the misinformed objections of paranoid Potter-phobes.
Please, Portrait, respond to the three specific arguments that I made near the beginning of this reply. It might just get us somewhere.
T
tigerick100
Guest
WWJD!!! The Question of the day my brothers & sisters.
What Would Jesus Do!!!
WIJD!!!
What Is Jesus Doing (through you and every person)!!!
Think & Pray Before You Talk/Write/Communicate To All…
God Bless Through Jesus Christ Our Savior, Amen!
What Would Jesus Do!!!
WIJD!!!
What Is Jesus Doing (through you and every person)!!!
Think & Pray Before You Talk/Write/Communicate To All…
God Bless Through Jesus Christ Our Savior, Amen!
E
EasterJoy
Guest
You do realize that The Exorcist is fiction, though, right? And not really what I’d call great fiction, either. (I knew a priest who called stories like that “spiritual pornography”: meaning, primarily titilating.)
B
BlueShadow123
Guest
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
Knowing that the HP saga was evil and demonic and contains stories would destroy his immortal soul, I advised my nephew to read Eugen Kogon’s The Theory And Practice Of Hell, about the practical workings of the Buchenwald concentration camp. I don’t want him to be contaminated by witchery and flying brooms, which are among the worst possible thing a kid could read about.
Stories about imaginary cloaks of invisibility and dog latin are far, far more dangerous than reading up on human experimentation and slave labor. So I’ve protected him from many Terrible ideas.
Stories about imaginary cloaks of invisibility and dog latin are far, far more dangerous than reading up on human experimentation and slave labor. So I’ve protected him from many Terrible ideas.
T
tigerick100
Guest
HELLO OUT THERE!!! HAVE YOU NOT READ THEE ABOVE!!!
IF YOUR GOING TO READ ANYTHING…READ THE BIBLE…NOT ONCE BUT 7 TIMES 70!!!
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
So you don’t want anyone to read the newspaper?HELLO OUT THERE!!! HAVE YOU NOT READ THEE ABOVE!!!
IF YOUR GOING TO READ ANYTHING…READ THE BIBLE…NOT ONCE BUT 7 TIMES 70!!!
E
estesbob
Guest
So why are you reading CAF?HELLO OUT THERE!!! HAVE YOU NOT READ THEE ABOVE!!!
IF YOUR GOING TO READ ANYTHING…READ THE BIBLE…NOT ONCE BUT 7 TIMES 70!!!
W
Whitacre_Girl
Guest
R
Reservoir_Dog
Guest
http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/Holy_grail_witch_burn_small.jpg
"-She turned me into a newt!
-A newt?
-I got better…",
"-She turned me into a newt!
-A newt?
-I got better…",
- Status