F
francesco920
Guest
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6239669.stm
Pray for the former archibishop and for his successor, whoever that may be.
Pray for the former archibishop and for his successor, whoever that may be.
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A
Apherius
Guest
It is better for him to quit than for him to be hampered and unable to function as archbishop. He took one for the team and showed great humility. I hope that he recieves great support and is shown love and forgiveness. If the man wasn’t good for the church then I am sure that the Holy Father wouldn’t have elevated him. I am sure that he can still contribute to the faith.
S
stellina
Guest
I read a comment to the effect that no one has the right to second-guess those who were surely threatened most severely by the Communist regimes in Poland and elsewhere behind the Iron Curtain. We can’t imagine how horrible it was to be a priest or religious in those circumstances. I have a friend whose father is an Orthodox priest from the former Yugoslavia and they feared for their lives, as did all Christians in those countries. They might be clergy but they are also human beings. Imagine asking our Holy Father to resign because he once belonged to the Hitler Youth & fought in the German Army?
C
Caesar
Guest
He did the right thing. In fact, I would say it would be a blessing to have more bishops who would surrender their thrones when it becomes obvious that they are not in line with Church teaching.
To have a bishop who cooperate with communists in a country that has been terribly scarred by communism would be a blow to the Church in Poland.
To have a bishop who cooperate with communists in a country that has been terribly scarred by communism would be a blow to the Church in Poland.
L
Lee44
Guest
The incident in Poland is but the tip of the iceberg. The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the suffering and deaths millions of innocent men and women throughout the years.
Lee44
Lee44
E
estesbob
Guest
They are? Could you give us some examples?The incident in Poland is but the tip of the iceberg. The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the suffering and deaths millions of innocent men and women throughout the years.
Lee44
R
Richardols
Guest
Some, yes, but millions? Puleeze!The incident in Poland is but the tip of the iceberg. The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the suffering and deaths millions of innocent men and women throughout the years.
Lee44
L
Lee44
Guest
Well, as I said years. When you add up the Crusades, back in the days when the Pope was more like a General etc. Then you have the inquisition. Then you have all of the innocent children that have been victims of pedophile Priests. And present day third world countries where untold numbers are dying and suffering from AIDS ( where the church teaches against the use of condoms) and the inability of many to feed their familes. Children are starving to death as we speak in part due to the Churches stance against ABC. Well, it does all add up. I am sure I missed other sources but those are the big ones.Some, yes, but millions? Puleeze!
Lee44
E
estesbob
Guest
In other words you cant substatiate your claim. For instance over its entire history the inquisition resulted in the execution by the State of perhaps 4,000 peolpe.Well, as I said years. When you add up the Crusades, back in the days when the Pope was more like a General etc. Then you have the inquisition. Then you have all of the innocent children that have been victims of pedophile Priests. And present day third world countries where untold numbers are dying and suffering from AIDS ( where the church teaches against the use of condoms) and the inability of many to feed their familes. Children are starving to death as we speak in part due to the Churches stance against ABC. Well, it does all add up. I am sure I missed other sources but those are the big ones.
Lee44
The crusades were a war between Islam and the West. Esitmated deaths about 30,000.
Can you tell us how advocationg monagamy and abstinence makes the Chruch responsibe for AIDS deaths?
As I see it we are (assuming milions means at least 2 million) you at least 1,976,000 short of proving your claim.
I have seen your posts in other threads and wonder why one who has zilch knowledge about the catholic church would post in these forums? Your posts make one cringe in embarassment for you. It would like me joining a group of surgeons in discussing brain surgery. I suggest before you embarass yourself further you learn a little bit more about the Church. The cathecism would be a good place to start.
L
Lee44
Guest
Hi Bob,In other words you cant substatiate your claim. For instance over its entire history the inquisition resulted in the execution by the State of perhaps 4,000 peolpe.
The crusades were a war between Islam and the West. Esitmated deaths about 30,000.
Can you tell us how advocationg monagamy and abstinence makes the Chruch responsibe for AIDS deaths?
As I see it we are (assuming milions means at least 2 million) you at least 1,976,000 short of proving your claim.
I have seen your posts in other threads and wonder why one who has zilch knowledge about the catholic church would post in these forums? Your posts make one cringe in embarassment for you. It would like me joining a group of surgeons in discussing brain surgery. I suggest before you embarass yourself further you learn a little bit more about the Church. The cathecism would be a good place to start.
No I can’t give you a body count, but God can. And well thats all that matters. As far as your personal attacks against me, I will pray for you. You seem to be really bitter. God Bless. I don’t think I will take the time to read the Catechism, as I am leaving the Catholic Church. BTW, check out the history channel tonight 9 pm est a program called Galileo and the sinful spyglass will tell you of one mans suffering at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.
Peace,
Lee44
E
estesbob
Guest
I am not attacking you. I am merely pointing out that your posts, given your ignorance of the Catholic Church, make you look very foolish.Hi Bob,
No I can’t give you a body count, but God can. And well thats all that matters. As far as your personal attacks against me, I will pray for you. You seem to be really bitter. God Bless. I don’t think I will take the time to read the Catechism, as I am leaving the Catholic Church. BTW, check out the history channel tonight 9 pm est a program called Galileo and the sinful spyglass will tell you of one mans suffering at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.
Peace,
Lee44
Gallelio, BTW, was not punished for promoting the Copernican theory(after all Copernicus was a catholic priest) so much as the way he promoted it. He, with the pemission of the vatican secreatary, wrote a book where the three protaganists discussed the theory. The Pope only required that he present all arguments for and against equally Gallelio then wrote "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems"
Unfortunatley the geocentrist in his book was named SIIMPLICIO and bore a very close resemblance to the pope. SIIMPLICIO was presented as somewhat of a buffoon. Gallelios problem then was that he disobeyed the Popes instructions to present all sides of the argument and he insulted(at last as far as the Vatican was concerned) the Pope. And that is “the rest of the stoy” It was a fascinating trial and rather than depend on the History Channel suggest you go to the source documents. You can find them at law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileo.html
I am still awaiting your substatiation of your claim that the Church was responsible for the deaths of millions.
L
Lee44
Guest
Bob,
there was a thing called the holocaust and some people still are wondering why the Pope did not do more including our Jewish brothers and sisters.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piustoc.html
Peace,
Lee44
there was a thing called the holocaust and some people still are wondering why the Pope did not do more including our Jewish brothers and sisters.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piustoc.html
Peace,
Lee44
L
Lee44
Guest
Bob,
as per your request here is a link about the crusades and the Popes role in it.
kent.ac.uk/mts/documents/undisc/segol.doc
Peace,
Lee44
as per your request here is a link about the crusades and the Popes role in it.
kent.ac.uk/mts/documents/undisc/segol.doc
Peace,
Lee44
L
Lee44
Guest
Leaked numbers provoke dispute: abuse report reveals 4,450 alleged priest abusers over last 50 years - Special Report
National Catholic Reporter, Feb 27, 2004 by Joe Feuerherd
.
The cable network reported Feb. 16 that, based on its review of the study, 4,450 priests were found to have been “credibly accused” of abusing approximately 11,000 children in the United States over the past half-century.
Whether those numbers are high, low or about what might be expected was a matter of some contention among exports and advocates familiar with the crisis. And whether the prematurely released numbers will be deemed accurate when the report is officially made public Feb. 27 is also an open question.
“The numbers reported in the media were apparently taken from a preliminary report completed in January 2004,” officials at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, authors of the study, said Feb. 17, a day after the initial CNN report.
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“The college has received additional data,” which, said the statement, “includes corrections to earlier drafts of the report.” John Jay said it would have no further comments until the report is released.
There are actually two reports scheduled for public release at the end of February. The first, conducted by the John Jay researchers, will provide a quantitative analysis of the national scope of clerical sex abuse over the last half century. The school’s researchers used data provided by nearly all U.S. dioceses and religious orders to determine the number of victims and alleged priest abusers.
The John Jay study was commissioned by the National Review Board appointed by the bishops to investigate clergy sexual abuse; the review board’s report on the “causes” of the crisis, like the John Jay study, is to be released Feb. 27.
According to CNN, the John Jay study found that:
National Catholic Reporter, Feb 27, 2004 by Joe Feuerherd
.
The cable network reported Feb. 16 that, based on its review of the study, 4,450 priests were found to have been “credibly accused” of abusing approximately 11,000 children in the United States over the past half-century.
Whether those numbers are high, low or about what might be expected was a matter of some contention among exports and advocates familiar with the crisis. And whether the prematurely released numbers will be deemed accurate when the report is officially made public Feb. 27 is also an open question.
“The numbers reported in the media were apparently taken from a preliminary report completed in January 2004,” officials at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, authors of the study, said Feb. 17, a day after the initial CNN report.
Advertisement
“The college has received additional data,” which, said the statement, “includes corrections to earlier drafts of the report.” John Jay said it would have no further comments until the report is released.
There are actually two reports scheduled for public release at the end of February. The first, conducted by the John Jay researchers, will provide a quantitative analysis of the national scope of clerical sex abuse over the last half century. The school’s researchers used data provided by nearly all U.S. dioceses and religious orders to determine the number of victims and alleged priest abusers.
The John Jay study was commissioned by the National Review Board appointed by the bishops to investigate clergy sexual abuse; the review board’s report on the “causes” of the crisis, like the John Jay study, is to be released Feb. 27.
According to CNN, the John Jay study found that:
- Approximately 4 percent of U.S. priests were credibly accused of abuse over the past half-century.
- Seven-eight percent of the victims were between ages 11 to 17, while the remainder were younger than age 10.
- A relatively small number of priests, 147, were alleged to have abused approximately 3,000 children.
- More than half of the accused priests faced a single allegation, 25 percent faced two or three allegations, 13 percent had four to nine, and 3 percent had 10 or more.
L
Lee44
Guest
Reaction to the numbers was swift.
“The big issue is that only a handful of sex abuse victims ever come forward,” said Gary Schoener, a Minnesota-based therapist who has consulted on hundreds of church-related abuse cases. Based on that reality, said Schoener, “you’ve got to change the 4,450 figure to a pretty horrific number.”
Victim advocates share Schoener’s analysis. “If half of [the priests] face only one accuser, it clearly suggests that there are thousands of people who have yet to come forward,” said David Clohessy, executive director of SNAEP the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
The “self-reporting” methodology of the John Jay study means that the numbers represent a “floor” and not a “ceiling,” said psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe.
“Any sociologist will tell you that you can expect minimization” when information is self-reported, said Sipe, a former Benedictine monk who has written extensively on clergy sex abuse and church reform. “And this is a self-report.”
Further, said Sipe, the report findings “don’t seem to be entirely consistent” across dioceses. What one diocese may consider a “credible accusation” may not meet the standards of another, he said. Sipe pointed to dioceses such as Baltimore, Boston and Manchester, N.H., where previously reported rates of abuse were found to be higher than the 4 percent of priests identified nationally in CNN’s reporting.
Sipe’s view was shared by victim advocates, who contend that sexual abuse is an underreported crime.
“I think virtually every reputable professional in psychology and law enforcement will tell you that the odds that a molester molested only once are extraordinarily slim,” said Clohessy. “It speaks to the continued and inevitable difficulties victims face coming forward and to the unwelcoming climate” they face when they bring their stories to church officials, said Clohessy.
Like Sipe, Penn State University professor Philip Jenkins raised the question of whether "different dioceses are using different standards as to what is ‘credible.’ "Still, said Jenkins, author of Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis, the “overall numbers are exactly in the ballpark” and reflect the distinctions between those who abuse prepubescent children and those who abuse teenagers.
It appears, said Jenkins, that the study reflects “100 or so really intense serial pedophiles who account for most of the cases” of abused children under age 10.
Those who argue that the rate of abuse has to be higher than reported, said Jenkins, “are taking the most extreme cases of serial pedophiles and treating them as if they are typical. If a man abuses a small child, like a 7- or 8-year-old, the odds are overwhelming that he will abuse five, eight or 20 children.” By contrast, he continued, a man who abuses a “16- or 17-year-old” is not necessarily engaged in a “pattern of behavior.”
“The big issue is that only a handful of sex abuse victims ever come forward,” said Gary Schoener, a Minnesota-based therapist who has consulted on hundreds of church-related abuse cases. Based on that reality, said Schoener, “you’ve got to change the 4,450 figure to a pretty horrific number.”
Victim advocates share Schoener’s analysis. “If half of [the priests] face only one accuser, it clearly suggests that there are thousands of people who have yet to come forward,” said David Clohessy, executive director of SNAEP the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
The “self-reporting” methodology of the John Jay study means that the numbers represent a “floor” and not a “ceiling,” said psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe.
“Any sociologist will tell you that you can expect minimization” when information is self-reported, said Sipe, a former Benedictine monk who has written extensively on clergy sex abuse and church reform. “And this is a self-report.”
Further, said Sipe, the report findings “don’t seem to be entirely consistent” across dioceses. What one diocese may consider a “credible accusation” may not meet the standards of another, he said. Sipe pointed to dioceses such as Baltimore, Boston and Manchester, N.H., where previously reported rates of abuse were found to be higher than the 4 percent of priests identified nationally in CNN’s reporting.
Sipe’s view was shared by victim advocates, who contend that sexual abuse is an underreported crime.
“I think virtually every reputable professional in psychology and law enforcement will tell you that the odds that a molester molested only once are extraordinarily slim,” said Clohessy. “It speaks to the continued and inevitable difficulties victims face coming forward and to the unwelcoming climate” they face when they bring their stories to church officials, said Clohessy.
Like Sipe, Penn State University professor Philip Jenkins raised the question of whether "different dioceses are using different standards as to what is ‘credible.’ "Still, said Jenkins, author of Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis, the “overall numbers are exactly in the ballpark” and reflect the distinctions between those who abuse prepubescent children and those who abuse teenagers.
It appears, said Jenkins, that the study reflects “100 or so really intense serial pedophiles who account for most of the cases” of abused children under age 10.
Those who argue that the rate of abuse has to be higher than reported, said Jenkins, “are taking the most extreme cases of serial pedophiles and treating them as if they are typical. If a man abuses a small child, like a 7- or 8-year-old, the odds are overwhelming that he will abuse five, eight or 20 children.” By contrast, he continued, a man who abuses a “16- or 17-year-old” is not necessarily engaged in a “pattern of behavior.”
L
Lee44
Guest
Bob,
You can deny the sins of the Church until you are blue in the face, but the numbers all do add up. Its tragic. I will pray for all of the victims and hope you do the same.
Lee44
You can deny the sins of the Church until you are blue in the face, but the numbers all do add up. Its tragic. I will pray for all of the victims and hope you do the same.
Lee44
R
rlg94086
Guest
You seem ready to leave the Church and revert to Protestantism. Why didn’t Protestants in Germany do more?
Surely, you aren’t blaming the Catholic Church for the holocaust.
Surely, you aren’t blaming the Catholic Church for the holocaust.
Bob,
there was a thing called the holocaust and some people still are wondering why the Pope did not do more including our Jewish brothers and sisters.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piustoc.html
Peace,
Lee44
E
estesbob
Guest
Surely you are suggesting the catholic church was responible for the Holocaust?Bob,
there was a thing called the holocaust and some people still are wondering why the Pope did not do more including our Jewish brothers and sisters.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/piustoc.html
Peace,
Lee44
E
estesbob
Guest
How does this translate into he church killing mllions of people?Reaction to the numbers was swift.
“The big issue is that only a handful of sex abuse victims ever come forward,” said Gary Schoener, a Minnesota-based therapist who has consulted on hundreds of church-related abuse cases. Based on that reality, said Schoener, “you’ve got to change the 4,450 figure to a pretty horrific number.”
Victim advocates share Schoener’s analysis. “If half of [the priests] face only one accuser, it clearly suggests that there are thousands of people who have yet to come forward,” said David Clohessy, executive director of SNAEP the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
The “self-reporting” methodology of the John Jay study means that the numbers represent a “floor” and not a “ceiling,” said psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe.
“Any sociologist will tell you that you can expect minimization” when information is self-reported, said Sipe, a former Benedictine monk who has written extensively on clergy sex abuse and church reform. “And this is a self-report.”
Further, said Sipe, the report findings “don’t seem to be entirely consistent” across dioceses. What one diocese may consider a “credible accusation” may not meet the standards of another, he said. Sipe pointed to dioceses such as Baltimore, Boston and Manchester, N.H., where previously reported rates of abuse were found to be higher than the 4 percent of priests identified nationally in CNN’s reporting.
Sipe’s view was shared by victim advocates, who contend that sexual abuse is an underreported crime.
“I think virtually every reputable professional in psychology and law enforcement will tell you that the odds that a molester molested only once are extraordinarily slim,” said Clohessy. “It speaks to the continued and inevitable difficulties victims face coming forward and to the unwelcoming climate” they face when they bring their stories to church officials, said Clohessy.
Like Sipe, Penn State University professor Philip Jenkins raised the question of whether "different dioceses are using different standards as to what is ‘credible.’ "Still, said Jenkins, author of Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis, the “overall numbers are exactly in the ballpark” and reflect the distinctions between those who abuse prepubescent children and those who abuse teenagers.
It appears, said Jenkins, that the study reflects “100 or so really intense serial pedophiles who account for most of the cases” of abused children under age 10.
Those who argue that the rate of abuse has to be higher than reported, said Jenkins, “are taking the most extreme cases of serial pedophiles and treating them as if they are typical. If a man abuses a small child, like a 7- or 8-year-old, the odds are overwhelming that he will abuse five, eight or 20 children.” By contrast, he continued, a man who abuses a “16- or 17-year-old” is not necessarily engaged in a “pattern of behavior.”
E
estesbob
Guest
No one disoputes the pope called for the crusades. So far what you have done is a document dump-none of which comes even close to backing up your absurd contention the church was responible for the deaths of millions.Bob,
as per your request here is a link about the crusades and the Popes role in it.
kent.ac.uk/mts/documents/undisc/segol.doc
Peace,
Lee44
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