Was Abraham a myth or a real person?

[CatholicofAgora]

In a bible study yesterday our RCIA director told us that Abraham, and the rest of the book of Genesis, is a myth. She said that it was written as a myth and was never intended to be a history book. I can understand that it is not a point for point history. However, that seems to me to be something different altogether than saying Abraham didn’t even exist at all!

Is the position of the Church and the Magisterium that Abraham was an actual, real individual? Is this one of those “free to disagree” points? I’ve heard this kind of thing about Adam, Job and Noah, but this is the first time I’ve heard this about Abraham.

What I would really like is a Catholic document (encyclical, council document, anything) that specifically spells out that we believe these were real people, but that may be hoping for too much.

Thanks,
-Corruich

Your RCIA instructor is mistaken. Abraham and the patriarchs is where myth ends and legend begins. I recommend getting Margarett Nutting Ralph’s book: And God Said What? An Introduction to Bible Literary Forms. It explains a lot. PBWY.

 

[Della]

I remember taking some adult religion class, and there was this one time I sorta of a run in with the Catholic nun who was running it. I mentioned St. Christopher for some reason and Catholic nun told me he didn’t exist. I told her I was pretty sure he was a saint, She told me no he isn’t and said “where have you been?” I said ‘I was reading about him just a few days ago’ (then). And she retorted “What books are you reading?” I became reticent then, it was pretty old book on saints. I thought it was a lovely story, and it evoke an admiration for St. Christopher and I was positively sure he was real and the story about him was true. I was taken aback how she handle telling me, I thought she was a bit tearse, but thinking about it maybe she was tire of telling people St Christopher wasn’t real and people believing that he did got on her nerves. I didn’t know what to think after that. Sometime I wish I was never told. I mean who could not love a saint who meet spoke with the child Jesus?

The nun was wrong about this. The Church has not said that St. Christopher “never existed” only that there is not enough evidence of his existence and historical documentation of his life and miracles to keep him on the Universal Calendar of Saints. However, those parishes named for him and the area in which he was said to have lived may celebrate him as their patronal saint. I can only say for the nun that she was misinformed and of the type, all too typical in the 60’s and 70’s who had become a mimimalist in her beliefs and thinking and so felt it her duty, sad to say, to squash any devotional practices she felt unnecessary. That was not her call to make, but unfortunately it didn’t stop people like her from imposing their agenda onto their students.

I’m only tell that story to let you know it can be tough when you believe in something and someone comes along and tells you you are wrong.

True, we don’t like to hear that what we believe is wrong, but then sometimes it is necessary, but this isn’t one of those times.

It is very possible that Abraham isn’t a real person, or maybe a conflation of historical people that survived as a single story (some might call it myth). Abraham is two millenium before Christ, and it is almost impossible to prove either way if he lived or didn’t. What is most import in the Abraham cycle isn’t wether he is real or not. It is what is taking place in the story. There is a lot happening and a lot to consider. The Holy Spirit guided those who wrote sacred scripture choose that story to speak to people not only then but throughout time.

And this is the result of that nun’s negativity–it’s placed doubts in your heart and mind. Let me disabuse you of this. Abraham had to have existed or we would not have our Savior because Christ is a direct descendent of Abraham. There is no good reason whatsoever to doubt Abraham’s existence.

Some have put forward specious arguments based on bad assumptions, dressed up as “research” which has no evidence to support it at all. It makes me disgusted that people, like your nun, will harm the faith of others with their own doubts–ones they don’t even have evidence for except that of latter day “scholars” who have nothing but an hypothesis with no proof for it called the “historical-critical method” which is not historically based but definitely is critical of anything that smacks of the divine. Hardly evidence or proof.

We have good reasons to believe that Adam existed, Abraham existed, David existed, and Jesus existed. There is no good reason to doubt this–none whatsoever.

 

[Mijo12]

From the story of Abraham in Genesis we do know that Abraham lived during the time of Ur and the time of the Hittites. Many biblical scholars believe he lived some time between 2000BC and 1700BC, even in my comparative religion class they say he founded Judaism around this time.

 

[Della]

From the story of Abraham in Genesis we do know that Abraham lived during the time of Ur and the time of the Hittites. Many biblical scholars believe he lived some time between 2000BC and 1700BC, even in my comparative religion class they say he founded Judaism around this time.

And his son Isaac had Jacob whom God renamed Israel who founded the 12 tribes of Israel, and thus the Israelite nation. This is history, not myth. Abraham was not a mythical god or hero like the Egyptian, Greek or Roman gods and heros. He was always protrayed as a real human person with real problems and real locations in which he lived and real people with whom he interacted. The only reason to doubt this is to cast doubt on the faith of Jews and Christians, and thus make excuse for why we moderns need not follow the Ten Commandments or believe in Christ. That’s it in a nutshell.

 

[miodrag1963]

We have good reasons to believe that Adam existed, Abraham existed, David existed, and Jesus existed. There is no good reason to doubt this–none whatsoever.

Then how about saints that never existed, like Barlaam and Josaphat ? Oh, yes, the last thing I heard is that they can not be found in Catholic calendar any more, since Roman Church took the opportunity and cleaned the house for the 2000 years anniversary. But they are still there in the Eastern Church. If John of Damascus, 7th century, made the mistake and introduced two imaginary characters ( well Barlaam is imaginary, Josaphat is a real person ) then we have a very good reason to doubt the historicity of the Old Testament characters. Furthermore, what else was invented? Forums like this could help us smooth the transition from Biblical literalism to a more critical understanding. Because times are changing. Bible was not meant to be a history or geography or biology or math schoolbook, hence the Biblical errors. It was meant to inspire, since in spirituality heart matters more than the intellect. Bible may have been a foundation for a scientific world view, but those times are gone, science upgraded it’s standards, while the faithful remained rigid. If the mistake of John of Damascus was corrected, then why not other mistakes too, if they were proven to be there? Or it is a taboo to question the Bible? We have to allow a critical approach and examine pros and cons, rigid faith would not help much there. Finding the truth will help us all understand better who we are, believers and non believers would benefit equally. To conclude “none whatsoever” is turning your head away.

 

[Mijo12]

Then how about saints that never existed, like Barlaam and Josaphat ? Oh, yes, the last thing I heard is that they can not be found in Catholic calendar any more, since Roman Church took the opportunity and cleaned the house for the 2000 years anniversary. But they are still there in the Eastern Church. If John of Damascus, 7th century, made the mistake and introduced two imaginary characters ( well Barlaam is imaginary, Josaphat is a real person ) then we have a very good reason to doubt the historicity of the Old Testament characters. Furthermore, what else was invented? Forums like this could help us smooth the transition from Biblical literalism to a more critical understanding. Because times are changing. Bible was not meant to be a history or geography or biology or math schoolbook, hence the Biblical errors. It was meant to inspire, since in spirituality heart matters more than the intellect. Bible may have been a foundation for a scientific world view, but those times are gone, science upgraded it’s standards, while the faithful remained rigid. If the mistake of John of Damascus was corrected, then why not other mistakes too, if they were proven to be there? Or it is a taboo to question the Bible? We have to allow a critical approach and examine pros and cons, rigid faith would not help much there. Finding the truth will help us all understand better who we are, believers and non believers would benefit equally. To conclude “none whatsoever” is turning your head away.

Since you mention the saints let me set THIS clear! back in the early church people were allowed to venerate the early martyrs of the church and many people were declared saints by the laity and by local bishops. It wasn’t until around the 5th century that the canonization process was reserved to the pope. Some saints were removed from the calendar (like St Christopher) NOT because they weren’t real people but because little of their lives are known to us.

 

[Della]

Then how about saints that never existed, like Barlaam and Josaphat ? Oh, yes, the last thing I heard is that they can not be found in Catholic calendar any more, since Roman Church took the opportunity and cleaned the house for the 2000 years anniversary. But they are still there in the Eastern Church. If John of Damascus, 7th century, made the mistake and introduced two imaginary characters ( well Barlaam is imaginary, Josaphat is a real person ) then we have a very good reason to doubt the historicity of the Old Testament characters. Furthermore, what else was invented? Forums like this could help us smooth the transition from Biblical literalism to a more critical understanding. Because times are changing. Bible was not meant to be a history or geography or biology or math schoolbook, hence the Biblical errors. It was meant to inspire, since in spirituality heart matters more than the intellect. Bible may have been a foundation for a scientific world view, but those times are gone, science upgraded it’s standards, while the faithful remained rigid. If the mistake of John of Damascus was corrected, then why not other mistakes too, if they were proven to be there? Or it is a taboo to question the Bible? We have to allow a critical approach and examine pros and cons, rigid faith would not help much there. Finding the truth will help us all understand better who we are, believers and non believers would benefit equally. To conclude “none whatsoever” is turning your head away.

Give us one good, solid evidence-backed reason to doubt the account of the OT patriarchs instead of sophistries woven from thin air.

 

[Lesliej64]

Yes, I am with Della. We should be careful about poisonous seeds being sown among good seeds. Some people (among both clergy and laity) are deliberately sent by the evil one to destroy faith

The Church has a healthy and balanced view about the scriptures. I have seen great faith, zeal and spiritual gifts that stand out even in simple persons who usually pray much and personally believe everything that is there in the Bible.

Those who study the Bible too much critically and intellectually without any spiritual life are filled with different views of numerous scholars, doubts of numerous interpretations of language and the ever changing standards of literature, history, archaeology, science, etc. After a certain level of learning they are convinced much of everything in the Bible is a myth and the Church is too outdated, etc.

All this comes as a hindrance to their spiritual life and they lead others who listen to them also to the same. These people are usually very self-content by their understanding, their degrees and the pride and the pleasure they get out of being able to bombard any biblical concept, any dogma or even a faith statement of the Church using their learning and knowledge. This is a spiritual deception, which they will not understand easily. Their spiritual vision is obscured because of their intellectual pride and their learning has become their idol.

 

[Della]

@Lesliej64

As St. Paul so aptly tells us in 1 Cor.1:

[18] For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.”
[20] Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
[21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
[22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
[23] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
[24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
[25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
[27] but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
[28] God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[29] so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

 

[miguel]

Yes, I am with Della. We should be careful about poisonous seeds being sown among good seeds. Some people (among both clergy and laity) are deliberately sent by the evil one to destroy faith

The Church has a healthy and balanced view about the scriptures. I have seen great faith, zeal and spiritual gifts that stand out even in simple persons who usually pray much and personally believe everything that is there in the Bible.

Those who study the Bible too much critically and intellectually without any spiritual life are filled with different views of numerous scholars, doubts of numerous interpretations of language and the ever changing standards of literature, history, archaeology, science, etc. After a certain level of learning they are convinced much of everything in the Bible is a myth and the Church is too outdated, etc.

All this comes as a hindrance to their spiritual life and they lead others who listen to them also to the same. These people are usually very self-content by their understanding, their degrees and the pride and the pleasure they get out of being able to bombard any biblical concept, any dogma or even a faith statement of the Church using their learning and knowledge. This is a spiritual deception, which they will not understand easily. Their spiritual vision is obscured because of their intellectual pride and their learning has become their idol.

Very well said, sis. Odi profanum vulgus et arceo. Where I grew up, surfing is part of the culture. Status (among surfers) comes from knowledge of the “secret spot”.

 

[miguel]

@Lesliej64

As St. Paul so aptly tells us in 1 Cor.1:

[18] For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.”
[20] Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
[21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
[22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
[23] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
[24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
[25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
[27] but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
[28] God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[29] so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

Della, this is a great quote from St Paul. I hope he really said it.

 

[Della]

Della, this is a great quote from St Paul. I hope he really said it.

 

[Rich]

Thank you all for your replies.

Unfortunately I don’t believe that is what she meant. She was trying to explain that the story communicates the relationship between God and his people and uses invented characters to do so. She said that she still believes it is inspired, but is inspired to teach us general themes.

Oh well, not really sure how to handle this. Any suggestions on what to say next time this comes up in class? I don’t want to flip tables or anything, but I don’t want the other people in the class being scandalized either. It seems like it throws an unnecessary stumbling block in people’s way for no appreciable gain.

Thanks again,
-Corruich

Sorry for you discomfort. But I take everything in the Work of God to be true and factual unless the Scriptures say not to.

Jesus when asked about life after death, He stated that “He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I am the God of the living not the dead.” If Jesus says Abraham is still alive I would believe Him.

 

[davidn87]

“Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things…” - Pius XII

 

[garysibio]

In a bible study yesterday our RCIA director told us that Abraham, and the rest of the book of Genesis, is a myth. She said that it was written as a myth and was never intended to be a history book. I can understand that it is not a point for point history. However, that seems to me to be something different altogether than saying Abraham didn’t even exist at all!

Is the position of the Church and the Magisterium that Abraham was an actual, real individual? Is this one of those “free to disagree” points? I’ve heard this kind of thing about Adam, Job and Noah, but this is the first time I’ve heard this about Abraham.

What I would really like is a Catholic document (encyclical, council document, anything) that specifically spells out that we believe these were real people, but that may be hoping for too much.

Thanks,
-Corruich

If you can doubt the historical accuracy of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah and the ark, Sodom and Gomorah, why not Abraham. While we’re at it, why not also doubt Moses, David and Jesus. We’ll all be great intellectuals but really bad Catholics.

 

[Lesliej64]

@Lesliej64

As St. Paul so aptly tells us in 1 Cor.1:

[18] For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.”
[20] Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
[21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
[22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
[23] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
[24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
[25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
[27] but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
[28] God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[29] so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

Thank you Della! St. Paul’s passage though 2000 years old, shows the unfortunate situation of many Christians, who have set above everything human intelligence and human popularity.