Was Anyone Allowed in Heaven before Christ?

[Sir_Knight]

Sure, Elijah was taken up by fiery chariots, but that is a distinction without a difference.

Why? If he were to go to the same place, why did he not go in the same fashion?

Put it this way - Mary was assumed into heaven. Does that mean she went to a different heaven than all the other saints who died after Christ? Absolutely not, even though none of them were assumed.

Of course Mary went to heaven differently than all of the other saints who died after Christ. She was assumed BODY and soul. According to Catholic teaching, no other saint has yet to be re-united with their body.

Difference = difference.

Same with Elijah - his fate was no different to that of any righteous Jew of his time, regardless of the fact that his entrance into the afterlife was a litte more colourful. He did indeed go to the same place all righteous Jews went - the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it.

We don’t know that for sure. The fact that his exit from this life was more “colorful” and different would seem to indicate that his destination would also be different and the bible does say that he was taken up to heaven. As I already pointed out, heaven could not have meant the sky nor outer space – what would he be doing up there in orbit. Heaven had to mean with God and His angels and not the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it where God was not present.

Heaven = heaven.

It is totally unfitting that ANYONE should enter Heaven before Christ’s death. Heaven is eternal, but His death and Resurrection which opened it to us were real-time events, just as our own death and entry into heaven is a real-time event. We have a definite START date for our heavenly existence, just not an end date. So did Elijah, and that start date had to be a date AFTER the time when Christ died.

You’re trying to consolidate time with eternity. In eternity there is no yesterday or tomorrow – there is only today … there is only right now – no later or before.

Therefore, it is entirely possible for Elijah to have entered heaven BEFORE Jesus’s death because in eternity that event already took place.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Yesterday was the first day of school. The monsignor did a mass for the school children and he started talking about how it seemed like only yesterday that he was doing the end of the school year mass before summer vacation.

He talked about how time flies and that while it may not seem like it to them, before they know it, they will be gathering again for the end of school mass. He also commented that before they know it, the first graders will be sitting where the eight graders are today and even though the journey may seem very long, when they get there, it will seem like only yesterday to them.

Anyway. All of this drifted into a talk about time & eternity. He asked the children to look at the altar and pointed out that they could be focusing on him or they could be focusing on the tabernacle or the cross or they could see all of it together by not focusing on one particular part but on all of it.

He said that that is how God sees time. If God looks over here, He sees Adam & Eve in the Garden. If He looks over here, He sees Jesus dying on the cross. If He looks over here, He sees Moses crossing the red sea. If He looks over here, He sees the students on their summer vacation. If He looks over here, He sees the first graders on their graduation day.

The point is that God sees everything at once. Because He is outside of time, there is no yesterday or tomorrow. There is no before or after. Therefore, Elijah could have been taken up to heaven BEFORE Jesus’s death on the cross because there was no “before” or after – it is all NOW.

 

[pprimeau1976]

It is totally unfitting that ANYONE should enter Heaven before Christ’s death. Heaven is eternal, but His death and Resurrection which opened it to us were real-time events, just as our own death and entry into heaven is a real-time event. We have a definite START date for our heavenly existence, just not an end date. So did Elijah, and that start date had to be a date AFTER the time when Christ died.

I see what you are saying but I do have issue with what you consider to be unfitting. Our faith tells us that the sanctifying grace of God is what enables a person to enter into heaven. Normally, this sanctifying grace is bestowed upon us via the sacraments, beginning with baptism. These are norms for us, not for God. God can save whoever he wants. For instance, the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of sanctifying grace before her son died on the cross. There was no need for her to be baptised. Had she died before her son, would she have had to wait for Christ to open heaven’s doors for everyone else? I don’t think so.

So if Mary was “born again” prior to her son dying on the cross, how do we know that Enoch, Elijah, or even Moses weren’t “born again” via some influx of sanctifying grace as well?

 

[GerardP]

In 2 Kings 2:1-12, Elijah goes to heaven, but how did anyone go to heaven before Christ paved the way destroyed by Adam and Eve?

This is what the 1859 commentary compiled by Fr. Haydock says about it:

Ver. 1. Heaven. By heaven here is meant, the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions, (Challoner) through which he was carried by the ministry of angels, who directed the storm, (Haydock ) to the place designed for him. — It is generally supposed to be Paradise, (Calmet) whither Henoch had been translated. (Haydock) — They are still living, (Calmet) and must come again, to invite all to repent. After which they will die martyrs, in the persecution of Antichrist. (Haydock) — See St. Augustine, de Gen. ad lit. ix. 6., and Apocalypse xi. (Worthington) — Ecclesiasticus xlviii. 10. (Menochius) — They are a proof of a future resurrection. (Calmet) — To decide where the paradise which they inhabit, (Haydock) is situated. would be rash. (St. Chrysostom, hom. 21. in Gen. &c.) Some suppose it is still in some unknown region of the earth: others place it above the sky, (Menochius) or in the bosom of Abraham. (Calmet) — The Jews (following Munster) assert that Elias penetrated the sphere of fire, where his body was consumed. (Vatable) — The earthly paradise is very probably no longer existing, in its ancient luxuriant state. (Haydock) — It may now be covered with the waters of the Persian Gulf. (Worthington)

 

[BlueKnight]

Ya I think Elijah was abducted by aliens. Maybe he’s teaching them scripture on the Moon.

Blue Knight

 

[Sir_Knight]

Ya I think Elijah was abducted by aliens. Maybe he’s teaching them scripture on the Moon.

Blue Knight

I went to a retreat and one of the guest speakers was a Catholic astronomer who has written several books and has a few videos out as well showing that science and astronomy actually prove that God exists and during his talk he mentioned that during the Apollo moon missions, they saw an alien civilization on the dark side of the moon (the side that we never see) and that is the reason why we stopped the Apollo moon missions.

You can take tha for what its worth.

 

[GerardP]

I see what you are saying but I do have issue with what you consider to be unfitting. Our faith tells us that the sanctifying grace of God is what enables a person to enter into heaven. Normally, this sanctifying grace is bestowed upon us via the sacraments, beginning with baptism. These are norms for us, not for God. God can save whoever he wants. For instance, the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of sanctifying grace before her son died on the cross. There was no need for her to be baptised. Had she died before her son, would she have had to wait for Christ to open heaven’s doors for everyone else? I don’t think so.

So if Mary was “born again” prior to her son dying on the cross, how do we know that Enoch, Elijah, or even Moses weren’t “born again” via some influx of sanctifying grace as well?

This is going to turn into a hornet’s nest I fear.

First, had she died before her Son, she would not have needed Baptism because it was not instituted as a sacrament. She would have been saved under the Old Covenant as St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.

Second,there is nothing in Catholicism which indicates that Mary did not need Baptism after Christ’s ascension. Baptism “marks the soul indelibly.” Mary was preserved from the stain of orginal sin and its concupiscence but that does not mean that she did not need the indelible mark of Baptism after Christ’s institution of the sacrament.

This leads to the question of whether Mary was justified at her conception but did she have the indelible mark of Baptism on her soul? I don’t think the Church has ever ruled on this.

On another point, you are contradictorily stating that Mary would have died or could have died prior to Christ. If she was completely free of everything from the Garden she would have been free from death.

The Church has never definitively ruled on whether the Blessed Mother died as we die or went into her “dormition” in some not understoof way or was fully conscious at her assumption.

 

[BlueKnight]

There are tons of youtube vids on said topic. My curiosity is about what do these “aliens” believe and practice.

BK

 

[Sir_Knight]

There are tons of youtube vids on said topic. My curiosity is about what do these “aliens” believe and practice.

BK

Well this is coming from a noted author.

 

[pprimeau1976]

This is going to turn into a hornet’s nest I fear.

I’ll be calm.

First, had she died before her Son, she would not have needed Baptism because it was not instituted as a sacrament. She would have been saved under the Old Covenant as St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.

OK, she may have been saved under the old law, but because she was free from original sin it is certainly possible that she could have made it to heaven.

Second,there is nothing in Catholicism which indicates that Mary did not need Baptism after Christ’s ascension. Baptism “marks the soul indelibly.” Mary was preserved from the stain of orginal sin and its concupiscence but that does not mean that she did not need the indelible mark of Baptism after Christ’s institution of the sacrament.

You won’t find a teaching as to whether Mary needed baptism, but isn’t it implied? The Church teaches the following about baptism:

CCC 978:
When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil.

***So if baptism is “for the forgiveness of sins” as the Creed puts it, wouldn’t Mary not need it since she was totally without sin? Or, if she did get baptised, what would it’s effect have been on Mary’s soul? Wouldn’t it have been an act of humbling oneself on Mary’s part, just as Christ’s baptism was an act of humbling oneself?

---

This leads to the question of whether Mary was justified at her conception but did she have the indelible mark of Baptism on her soul? I don’t think the Church has ever ruled on this.

Like I said, it is implied. And does baptism actually leave a mark? I always thought that it cleans and purifies the soul by washing away sins. The mark is actually original sin.

On another point, you are contradictorily stating that Mary would have died or could have died prior to Christ. If she was completely free of everything from the Garden she would have been free from death…The Church has never definitively ruled on whether the Blessed Mother died as we die or went into her “dormition” in some not understoof way or was fully conscious at her assumption.

You are correct that it hasn’t, so therefore it is up for theological speculation. The fact that she was free from orginal sin does not necessarily mean that she never experienced death. It could be that she wanted to share in the death of her Son by dying herself, and therefore God granted her this request. But this is pure theological speculation.

But we are getting a little off topic here. Back to the original question.

 

[LilyM]

Why? If he were to go to the same place, why did he not go in the same fashion?

Of course Mary went to heaven differently than all of the other saints who died after Christ. She was assumed BODY and soul. According to Catholic teaching, no other saint has yet to be re-united with their body.

Difference = difference.

Not in this case it doesn’t. Let’s try again.

Firstly, Mary went to heaven in a different fashion than you or I, yes. She did NOT go to a different PLACE than you or I will go to if we die in a state of grace, did she now? Heaven is heaven is heaven, same place no matter how we get there, yes? All the other saints are there rubbing shoulders with her, yes? Even though they weren’t assumed?

What you’re saying is Elijah DID go to a different place than all the good people around him went when they died - Elisha who succeeded him for example. THEY all went to limbo of the Fathers until Christ’s death. And so did Elijah.

We know this, the Catechism teaches us so. It does NOT teach the preposterous idea that Elijah or anyone else was granted an exception to this, but instead correctly teaches that ALL who died before Christ had to wait for His own death and resurrection before they could enter heaven.

We don’t know that for sure.

We DO know for sure, the Catechism tells us so for sure, for crying out loud. It tells us EVERYONE, including Elijah, went to Limbo of the Fathers first and that they didn’t precede Christ into heaven. If you refuse to believe this, your argument isn’t with me, it’s with the Church’s teaching.

The fact that his exit from this life was more “colorful” and different would seem to indicate that his destination would also be different

No more so than Mary’s - her destination was no different to ours. Why would his be different to those of the good people around him?

it is entirely possible for Elijah to have entered heaven BEFORE Jesus’s death because in eternity that event already took place.

No it is not possible. The Church teaches, and we must hear her, that no-one preceded Christ into heaven. Says so in the Catechism plain as day. No Elijah, no anybody, no exceptions. The Church would tell us about them if it were even possible that they did precede Him.

Think about what you’re saying here - if heaven is outside time in such a way that everyone who’s there has ‘always been’ there, then all the good people who died before Christ must have already been in heaven, too, and already preceded Him. Since time doesn’t matter for them either.

In which case Christ would have absolutely no need, or even wish, to ‘descend to the dead’ to preach salvation to them, as the Creed teaches He did, and as we must believe that He did. Since those who were saved were all already in Heaven, it would’ve been pointless for Him to do so.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Not in this case it doesn’t. Let’s try again.

Firstly, Mary went to heaven in a different fashion than you or I, yes. She did NOT go to a different PLACE than you or I will go to if we die in a state of grace, did she now? Heaven is heaven is heaven, same place no matter how we get there, yes? All the other saints are there rubbing shoulders with her, yes? Even though they weren’t assumed?

You said it yourself. Heaven is heaven. It’s not the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it. And scripture tells us that he was taken up to heaven.

What you’re saying is Elijah DID go to a different place than all the good people around him went when they died - Elisha who succeeded him for example. THEY all went to limbo of the Fathers until Christ’s death. And so did Elijah.

Scripture does not specify where Elisha went but it DOES specify where Elijah went. Again, it says that he went to HEAVEN and not the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it.

We know this, the Catechism teaches us so. It does NOT teach the preposterous idea that Elijah or anyone else was granted an exception to this, but instead correctly teaches that ALL who died before Christ had to wait for His own death and resurrection before they could enter heaven.

And what I am saying that in eternity Jesus already rose from the dead when Elijah was taken up to heaven so there is no contradiction with what the Catechism teaches.

We DO know for sure, the Catechism tells us so for sure, for crying out loud. It tells us EVERYONE, including Elijah, went to Limbo of the Fathers first and that they didn’t precede Christ into heaven. If you refuse to believe this, your argument isn’t with me, it’s with the Church’s teaching.

The Catechism specifically states that Elijah also went to the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it? Where?

No more so than Mary’s - her destination was no different to ours. Why would his be different to those of the good people around him?

Why? Because the bible tells us so. It tells us specifically that he was taken up to heaven. It does not say this about any of the other good people around him as far as I know. If you can cite an example, I’ll stand corrected and conceed my error.

No it is not possible. The Church teaches, and we must hear her, that no-one preceded Christ into heaven. Says so in the Catechism plain as day. No Elijah, no anybody, no exceptions. The Church would tell us about them if it were even possible that they did precede Him.

The church tells us about things that the Holy Spirit has revealed to it. Not all things HAVE been revealed. This is true in Jesus’s time when He said that He has much more to tell the Apostles but will not do so because they will not be able to bear it and it is also true for us today – God reveals things to us over time.

Think about what you’re saying here - if heaven is outside time in such a way that everyone who’s there has ‘always been’ there, then all the good people who died before Christ must have already been in heaven, too, and already preceded Him. Since time doesn’t matter for them either.

Yes, heaven exists outside of time because when time ceases to exist, heaven will continue to exist. So while they would have preceeded Christ in Time, they did not preceed Christ in Eternity so there is no conflict with Church teaching or with scripture.

In which case Christ would have absolutely no need, or even wish, to ‘descend to the dead’ to preach salvation to them, as the Creed teaches He did, and as we must believe that He did. Since those who were saved were all already in Heaven, it would’ve been pointless for Him to do so.

I’ve give you that point but that’s mostlikely because being creatures of time, there are things that we do not understand about transiting from time to eternity.

 

[LilyM]

For the benefit of those who don’t seem to be able to read the Catechism:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the Poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”. “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when He descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before Him.

ALL the dead, whether evil or righteous, were *deprived *of the vision of God prior to Christ’s own death. ALL the righteous needed to ‘await their redeemer’ before being able to enter God’s presence.

Not a one of them is recorded as having been GRANTED the extraordinary grace of avoiding this deprivation and avoiding this waiting period. Not even Elijah. How much plainer does the Catechism have to state it for you? Elijah didn’t get early entry into God’s presence! No-one did.

We know the exceptions to such rules when there are exceptions - for example to Paul’s ‘all have sinned’, it’s both obvious and explicit Church teaching that Mary was one exception, that children under the age of reason and those lacking mental capacity are also exceptions. God has ways of letting us know these things

And since when does ‘heaven’ in the Bible automatically mean God’s presence anyways? When He created the heavens and the earth in Genesis did He create His own presence? Of course not - His presence is not a created thing.

When God created the ‘waters’ above the heavens - how can that possibly refer to placing some sort of water above His own presence? The idea is nonsense and interpreting the word ‘heaven’ so also is nonsense.

Heaven in these cases simply means ‘the sky’, as the posted explanation of Elijah’s assumption makes clear. This makes sense - the ‘waters’ are obviously the clouds which are kinda sorta above the sky.

We use heaven in a similar sense now - stars and planets are ‘heavenly bodies’ - means they’re in created space and the created universe, not in the heaven of God’s own presence.

So it is plain as day that when scripture records Elijah being taken into heaven it simply means that He was taken into the sky and out of sight. Not a reference to his eternal destiny or any sort of entry into God’s presence.

 

[Koru]

I’d like to submit that there is no “before” and “after” when referring to whether or not God experiences time… so Christ died for all (even for those who died before Christ’s sacrifice), and it’s my understanding that no man will enter the kingdom of God to be with Him for all eternity until the end of time anyways.

I’m not 100% sure on the issue, so i’m subject to criticism regarding these issues >_<

 

[LilyM]

I’d like to submit that there is no “before” and “after” when referring to whether or not God experiences time… so Christ died for all (even for those who died before Christ’s sacrifice), and it’s my understanding that no man will enter the kingdom of God to be with Him for all eternity until the end of time anyways.

I’m not 100% sure on the issue, so i’m subject to criticism regarding these issues >_<

Doesn’t matter whether or not God experiences time, not for this question, it’s whether he brings *us *into the same level of eternity as himself, and if so, when.

The catechism seems crystal clear that He didn’t, for any of the souls who died before Christ, take them to His presence immediately upon their death. That there was some sort of ‘waiting’ the souls of the just had to do, waiting for the point in time at which His death and resurrection took place.

The souls of the just are already in heaven, however, the Catholic Church teaches that as certain, their bodies only will rise again and enter it on the last day.

 

[Koru]

Doesn’t matter whether or not God experiences time, not for this question, it’s whether he brings *us *into the same level of eternity as himself, and if so, when.

The catechism seems crystal clear that He didn’t, for any of the souls who died before Christ, take them to His presence immediately upon their death. That there was some sort of ‘waiting’ the souls of the just had to do, waiting for the point in time at which His death and resurrection took place.

The souls of the just are already in heaven, however, the Catholic Church teaches that as certain, their bodies only will rise again and enter it on the last day.

I think what you’re looking for is proof for Purgatory. This is where I think all souls are to wait and to be judged at the end of time… but who knows for sure

 

[dcdurel]

From this web site
cicdc.org/articles/saunder_elijah.htm
I copied the following.

“From Sacred Scripture, the three heavens would be delineated as follows: the first heaven is the earth’s atmosphere. The Hebrew word shamayim may be translated as “heaven,” but more appropriately refers to the sky. Another Hebrew word for this first heaven is shachaq, which is more accurately translated in English as “clouds” or “sky.” The second heaven is “outer space,” where one finds the stars and the planets.
The third heaven, as described by St. Paul, is Paradise, where God resides and the heavenly sanctuary exists.”

The topic was Elijah Taken Into Heaven, by Rev. William Saunders.

There is a lot more, but it is too long to post here. It gives the best explanations of where Elijah went. And it was not the third heaven, where God resides.

 

[DanB]

It wouldn’t make sense if people actually made it to heaven before Christ’s resurrection. If people of old could work their way to heaven then Christ’s saving grace wasn’t necessary.

 

[LilyM]

I think what you’re looking for is proof for Purgatory. This is where I think all souls are to wait and to be judged at the end of time… but who knows for sure

The Church knows for sure - and has specified what it knows in the Catechism. If you call yourself Catholic you’d better learn their teaching, read the section of the Catechism which outlines our beliefs on Purgatory and the afterlife, and believe it!

In short everyone’s soul proceeds immediately either to heaven, purgatory or hell upon death. Purgatory is a place of preparation and purification, only for those who have died in venial but not mortal sin, after which their souls proceed to heaven.

At the last judgement only the bodies will be raised and join the souls which are already in their eternal reward or punishment.

 

[Filiuscanimaris]

The angels are always in heaven, that is in union with God. Heaven is not a place, it is the state of being in union with God. Thus, even when angels appear on earth, they are still in heaven.

Not a place?

I suspect it is, as otherwise all “local” references about Heaven border on absurd.

The State of Grace is called the seed of Heaven.

Admittedly, the chief thing about Heaven is Union with God, but if God respects our human nature, it is hard to see how he has provided no place for Himself, Our Lady or us.

OK, angels do no occupy space, so they will be evident in a way which we can “see”.

What say the theologians?