Was Anyone Allowed in Heaven before Christ?

[GandalfTheWhite]

That’s an excellent point. They were already in a glorified state – further showing that the passage of time here on earth is entirely different in eternity.

Where do you get the idea that Moses was in Heaven? From the Bible? The Church?

So, which righteous Jews were not in Heaven?

 

[Sir_Knight]

From Hades, which is where all went before Jesus “descended to Hell” and opened the gates to Heaven.

So God brought them out of hades, glorified them briefly so that they could converse with Jesus and then send them back to hades? That doesn’t sound right.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Where do you get the idea that Moses was in Heaven? From the Bible? The Church?

He appeared in his glorified form, didn’t he? Does that happen prior to entering heaven? I don’t believe.

So, which righteous Jews were not in Heaven?

We don’t know the answer to that question just as we don’t know who is ultimately in heaven except for the saints that are officially recognized by the church.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Yes, but in the case of prayer, this phenomenon applies to everyone equally.

If your theory holds water, then there should never have been anyone in Hades. They should have all been translated to the moment after the Resurrection, and brought straight into Heaven.

Again, why only Elijah?

Because the bible only mentions Elijah.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I disagree. I asked you why and I’m still waiting for a complete answer. All I learned is that it can’t be anything else because it doesn’t make sense since that would that he “preached to the birds”. In post #63 I explained that this is not the case. Sorry, but I’m expecting you will show me how this post doesn’t make sense. Thanks.

The “sky” or “outer space” is not a final resting place for the soul. Therefore those two definitions have be be discounted. The only place left is the heaven where God and His angels are.

That’s correct, but only after Christ died on the Cross.

The footnote doesn’t indicate that it was AFTER Chirst died on the Cross but at the moment that he was taken up to heaven.

However, this is a moot point because as I said previously, when Elijah was taken up to heaven, Christ had already died and risen from the dead even though that event wouldn’t happen for centuries later.

This was said many times and the issue deeper. I ask you to discuss those deeper issues, such as in the paragraph above.

I lost you. Please come again.

No. There are conflicts and I outlined them. You haven’t answered.

There are no conflicts. The church teaches us that no one went up to heaven until Christ death on the cross. The bible tells us that Elijah was taken up to heaven centuries earlier. The ONLY answer that does not conflict with both is that in eternity Christ had already risen from the dead.

Have you stopped at least for a second and wondered why the Church is teaching things “contrary to the scripture”? Have wondered why for example Cyril of Jerusalem was so dumb not to see the obvious contradiction that which you see so clearly? He clearly believe that heaven was referring to the sky.

If we take your answer then the church IS teaching things that are contrary to scripture but if you take my answer, there is no contradiction because in eternity Christ had already risen from the dead when Elijah was taken up to heaven.

That’s what all the protestant tell us every day on this board. But they are wrong.

Protestants place their faith in only the bible. I place my faith in BOTH and see no contradiction – as it should be.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So God brought them out of hades, glorified them briefly so that they could converse with Jesus and then send them back to hades? That doesn’t sound right.

Why?

Look at the Parable a of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). The verse 27-28 say: “He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.”

Now Abraham didn’t agree, but imagine if he would. Would that require Lazarous to go to Heaven beforehand? No because being able to appear to people (yes, actually the Jews believed in ghosts) has nothing to do with who is in Heaven and who is not. People before the coming of Messiah were in Hades and they could appear to people.

Simply put, the fact that the two appeared to Jesus and do Apostles tells us nothing about their location.

He appeared in his glorified form, didn’t he? Does that happen prior to entering heaven? I don’t believe.

What do you mean glorified form?

We don’t know the answer to that question just as we don’t know who is ultimately in heaven except for the saints that are officially recognized by the church.

Well, I asked this question because you suddenly started telling us that Moses was in heaven before Jesus died on the Cross.

Because the bible only mentions Elijah.

No, that doesn’t answer his question. He asks pretty much the same question like the one that you ignored though out the whole thread. You offer no explanations while what you’re saying doesn’t make sense. You still must explain why on earth the righteous Jews waited for Jesus when his sacrifice sacrifice had already taken place.

Let me quote post #71:

**PS: Just in case you really somehow missed (thought I don’t see how that can happen) the questions here they are:

1.) You are saying that the passage doesn’t make sense and that the only sound explanation is that he went to Heaven. Surely you are not the first person to read this passage and think about it or study the Bible. If you are correct then all those great Church Fathers, theologians and Popes of the Church must have thought the same and they had enough time to realize what you did. Why is this teaching not found in the Church? If you must make such a theory in order not to contradict the Bible why was it not suggested by the Church? Of course I might be ignorant of it in which case please show me but as far as I know the only real reference to the idea if by Cyril of Jerusalem who says that he didn’t go to Heaven (post #66)**

2.) What is the purpose of Hades and why are we taught that everyone went there before the resurrection? How come it applied only to Elijah and not the others?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The “sky” or “outer space” is not a final resting place for the soul. Therefore those two definitions have be be discounted. The only place left is the heaven where God and His angels are.

Ok, do you read my posts? Really! Because I don’t understand why you’re making such posts. In post #63 I agree with that so what you said doesn’t refute my argument. It simply agrees with one part of my argument.

I said that the passage only explains the visible means by which Elijah left the Earth but not the destination. Please read that post and reply to it.

The footnote doesn’t indicate that it was AFTER Chirst died on the Cross but at the moment that he was taken up to heaven.

You are correct and I didn’t say it did. It indicated neither. It merely says that he was taken to heaven body and soul. When? Well we apply the Church’s teaching and realize that it was after Christ opened the Gates to Heaven.

However, this is a moot point because as I said previously, when Elijah was taken up to heaven, Christ had already died and risen from the dead even though that event wouldn’t happen for centuries later.

If it work this way then what is the purpose of Hades and why are we taught that everyone went there before the resurrection? How come it applied only to Elijah and not the others?

I lost you. Please come again.

Basically you seem to repeat your believe that what we say contradicts the scripture and use it as your argument. However we don’t see it as an argument because we disagree on the issue that would make it an argument (that is the question what heaven refers to). The problem is that you’re unwilling to discuss the issue or at least you’re ignoring the post that refute the idea.

There are no conflicts. The church teaches us that no one went up to heaven until Christ death on the cross. The bible tells us that Elijah was taken up to heaven centuries earlier. The ONLY answer that does not conflict with both is that in eternity Christ had already risen from the dead.

Well, that’s very persuasive. You don’t answer it and only tell me that there is no conflict?

If we take your answer then the church IS teaching things that are contrary to scripture but if you take my answer, there is no contradiction because in eternity Christ had already risen from the dead when Elijah was taken up to heaven.

If this is your answer to my question then excuse me if I say that it sounds very arrogant. It sounds like you believe that after 2000 years you found a contradiction and it’s your role to solve it and correct the centuries of great Church Fathers, Popes and Theologians which were too blind to realize that they believe in a contradiction.

Do you believe that Cyril of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church, wasn’t too smart enough to see the contradiction. Perhaps you speak better Hebrew to make a better judgment…

Protestants place their faith in only the bible. I place my faith in BOTH and see no contradiction – as it should be.

If you indeed place faith in both then you should be able to support your belief with the teaching of the Church.

 

[LilyM]

The “sky” or “outer space” is not a final resting place for the soul. Therefore those two definitions have be be discounted. The only place left is the heaven where God and His angels are.

You obviously haven’t been reading my last few posts either. Purgatory isn’t a final resting place either - yet plenty of people manage to end up there when they die, and stay for a time, after which they proceed to heaven.

Why are you so insistent Elijah didn’t equally go to the same temporary resting place (Limbo of the Fathers) as every other righteous Jew before Christ? Some Bible footnote?

Everyone who’s read the NAB knows how cruddyand downright wrong some of ITS footnotes are, yet they are ‘officially approved’ too.

 

[Sir_Knight]

GandalfTheWhite, I will attempt to address your points after the week-end when I once again have more online time.

You obviously haven’t been reading my last few posts either. Purgatory isn’t a final resting place either - yet plenty of people manage to end up there when they die, and stay for a time, after which they proceed to heaven.

No, it isn’t a FINAL resting place for the soul but it is a DESTINATION for the soul while the sky and outer space is not – thus excluding them from consideration as being a possible meaning for the word “heaven”.

Why are you so insistent Elijah didn’t equally go to the same temporary resting place (Limbo of the Fathers) as every other righteous Jew before Christ? Some Bible footnote?

Everyone who’s read the NAB knows how cruddyand downright wrong some of ITS footnotes are, yet they are ‘officially approved’ too.

Up until a few days ago I had no opinion on this matter what so ever. However, the Catholic faith has to be consistent. There is no room for contradictions because the truth can not contradict itself.

The church teaches that no one went to heaven prior to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. The bible tells us that Elijah was taken up to heaven. Heaven can have three possible meanings but logic excludes two of those meanings leaving us with what appears to be a contradiction.

But the truth can not contradict itself. What is the only way for church teaching to be correct and for the bible to also be correct?

The only possible answer that I can see is that events in time flow differently in eternity. The fact that Catholics believe that God can apply our future prayers before they are said helps to support my position.

Look at it this way … every person in purgatory will eventually be released yet God does not apply ALL of our future prayers for people and release then immediately.

Why? When future prayers can be applied to a person before they are said? I don’t know but God in His infinite wisdom does know.

For that reason, some folks from the OT did not instantly go to heaven but some folks like Elijah did because the moment that he was taken up to heaven is the same moment that Jesus died from the cross and the same moment that Jesus rose from the dead.

Again, no contradiction with church teaching or the bible because the truth can not contradict itself. To claim that he wasn’t taken up to heaven contradicts the bible and to say that heaven had one of the other two meanings just don’t make logical sense either.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

GandalfTheWhite, I will attempt to address your points after the week-end when I once again have more online time.

Ok, that’s cook. Thank you!

I’ve listed several questions and I would really love them to be answered. But it seems that the main thing that needs to be discussed (because it’s most direct) is the assertion that logic excludes that the word heaven could mean sky. We need to know why you say this. It’s very important for the debate. You see, I’ve asked you this several times but all I learned is how you interpret (or rather not interpret) the passage. That doesn’t do us any good. So I hope this will change after the weekend. I would love if you could explain WHY it can’t mean sky and elaborate on the on the meaning of the passage that especially excludes this option. To do this I will point you to my argument in post #63, which specifically deals with this issue.

I guess to make it even clearer I will do this:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2421/elijahfd2.jpg

Why can’t the the 5th image, when viewed from the eyes of the person who remained behind, be described with the words: “…and Elijah went up by a to heaven.”?

So have a good weekend and see you!

God bless,
~G

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, but if time flows differently in eternity, then it flows differently in the same way for everyone who enters into eternity.

If your theory is correct, then no one need have gone to the Limbo of the Fathers - they could all have just time-shifted, and gone to Heaven at some point after the Resurrection (meaning that they would have simply disappeared during the space of time between their actual death, and their entry into Heaven).

PS: Meaning that Elijah did not even exist in time, at the moment that He appeared to Christ during the Transfiguration - so much for that idea.

NEXT!

 

[pprimeau1976]

OK…I decided to post a question on EWTN’s Faith Q&A. They agree with Gandalf the White:

Paul, It is my understanding that no human was saved, i.e. in Heaven, before the saving death and resurrection of Jesus. Fr.Bob Levis

So, now I am on the fence on this issue.

So now, theologically speaking, the only way I believe a person could have made it to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice is if 1) they were immaculately concieved without original sin and 2) they were sinless throughout their lives. As to whether anyone met this requirement is beyond my knowledge.

 

[jmcrae]

OK…I decided to post a question on EWTN’s Faith Q&A. They agree with Gandalf the White:

So, now I am on the fence on this issue.

So now, theologically speaking, the only way I believe a person could have made it to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice is if 1) they were immaculately concieved without original sin and 2) they were sinless throughout their lives. As to whether anyone met this requirement is beyond my knowledge.

Not even then, since their human nature would have kept them out, even if they never sinned or had any original sin. (Adam and Eve were never going to have gone to Heaven.)

But when Jesus, whose Divine nature required that he return to Heaven, arrived there with His human nature, Christ’s human nature blew the doors off Heaven and caused it to become possible for human beings to go there.

This is why we sing “O Happy Fault of Adam” at Easter time - because if Adam had never sinned, Jesus would never have had to take on a human nature, and then Heaven would never have been opened to human beings.

 

[Sir_Knight]

OK…I decided to post a question on EWTN’s Faith Q&A. They agree with Gandalf the White:

So, now I am on the fence on this issue.

So now, theologically speaking, the only way I believe a person could have made it to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice is if 1) they were immaculately concieved without original sin and 2) they were sinless throughout their lives. As to whether anyone met this requirement is beyond my knowledge.

Unless, of course, Jesus had already risen from the dead when Elijah was taken up to heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Yes, but if time flows differently in eternity, then it flows differently in the same way for everyone who enters into eternity.

True but different souls spend different amounts of time in purgatory before entering heaven. Some may by-pass purgatory all-together. While the gates of heaven MIGHT have been open to others, for reasons known only to God, Elijah may have been the only one to be granted early admittance.

If your theory is correct, then no one need have gone to the Limbo of the Fathers - they could all have just time-shifted, and gone to Heaven at some point after the Resurrection (meaning that they would have simply disappeared during the space of time between their actual death, and their entry into Heaven).

If God applies our future prayers before they occur, then no one need to go to purgatory because eventually everyone will be freed. Yet people still end up in there and some for an extremely long time.

PS: Meaning that Elijah did not even exist in time, at the moment that He appeared to Christ during the Transfiguration - so much for that idea.

No, he existed in eternity in a glorified state showing that he had already entered heaven – so much for that idea.

NEXT!

Next.

 

[jmcrae]

No, he existed in eternity in a glorified state showing that he had already entered heaven – so much for that idea.

If we follow your theory, he was not even on the continuum of time, between his death and Christ’s resurrection. (He did not exist at all as far as the time continuum is concerned.) Therefore, he could not have appeared to Christ at the moment of the Transfiguration, because the time of the Transfiguration is at a point on the continuum that lies between Elijah’s death, and Christ’s resurrection - it’s part of the section that Elijah would have had to by-pass in his time-shift.

 

[Sir_Knight]

There is no time-shifting. Time does not exist in eternity. Once he entered heaven, he existed during all time … when Moses parted the sea, when Jesus was born, when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

There is no time-shifting. Time does not exist in eternity. Once he entered heaven, he existed during all time … when Moses parted the sea, when Jesus was born, when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit, etc.

Um - no, I don’t think so. I think it’s that way for God, but not for us. Otherwise, we could pray to ourselves in Heaven, and I don’t think we can.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is no time-shifting. Time does not exist in eternity. Once he entered heaven, he existed during all time … when Moses parted the sea, when Jesus was born, when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit, etc.

Once he enterered Heaven? So he had to enter heaven first?

But no one could be admitted into Heaven before Jesus opened it! As was already said and as you admit now, it is in Heaven that we enter eternity. In other words statement that he was saved by Jesus to enter heaven after he entered Heaven doesn’t make any sense.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

True but different souls spend different amounts of time in purgatory before entering heaven. Some may by-pass purgatory all-together. While the gates of heaven MIGHT have been open to others, for reasons known only to God, Elijah may have been the only one to be granted early admittance.

**Before **Christ opened them the gates were closed for everyone.

Hades before the the coming of Christ and Purgatory are two different things. They simply can’t be compared. It’s like comparing apples and oranges or even worse.

If God applies our future prayers before they occur, then no one need to go to purgatory because eventually everyone will be freed. Yet people still end up in there and some for an extremely long time.

If you think that then you simply do not understand the nature of purgatory and how prayers work. Make another thread about it. Just an example: it is almost like saying that you need not to go to prison because you will eventually be released.

No, he existed in eternity in a glorified state showing that he had already entered heaven – so much for that idea.

…so if Abraham would agree with the Rich Man, he would have to first go to Heaven?

By the way, just a friendly reminder, I’m looking forward hearing the responses to those question I mentioned before.