C
Chuck_H
Guest
Setting original sin as a “revealed truth” is contrary to the historical record. St Augustine himself argues the point and uses logic and historical sources for his arguments. That his argument was debated and finally accepted is a historical fact.
St Augustine however, leaves the door open in his passage quoted in my original statement. Why did he leave the door open? Possibly because he knew the profound effect that this argument would have on faith and morals. As I scan through the various threads I can see the marks of his argument over and over again.
Now if St Augustine had a sense that science would progress and show that some things that he himself believed as true were not seen rightly when faced with the reality of the situation (and I think he did) then he would have left a door open for future debate and discussion.
Since the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally based on Genesis then Genesis can be rightfully put to the test against existing knowledge from age to age.
I can give the old and tired arguments of Galileo’s fight with the church but I believe that has been hashed to death and can see fault on both sides. The truth of Galileo isn’t so much a “I told you so!” thing. The fundamental effect of Galileo was that man could no longer make the claim that HE was the center of the universe. It was humbling that we turn out to be a small planet revolving around a small sun out of the arm of a spiral galaxy which is a relatively small galaxy in a family of big galaxies. While not a proven scientific fact, we still have to entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, God is gathering in His souls from many spots in this vast creation.
Equally, if the reality of the human condition is God directed Ascent rather then God punishment-reaction Descent then that brings about a fundamental change also. That change does not affect God, He still created us, He still decided to share His life with us, He still brought a selected part of humanity to one side and gave them what was needed to advance both theologically and mentally. He still became one of us through His Son and gave us the next step in our change. What changes is us. Again we are humbled from the sheer audacity that we could do anything that would make God angry. we may be forced to view ourselves as not the be all-end all of creation but see ourselves in the reality that we are the hairless apes that God chose to invest Himself in.
Before anyone can fall back on “doctrine”, it is important to realize that Jewish scholars and theologians developed traditions and doctrines that God blew off as simple nonsense. These were God’s chosen people. Now we are the new chosen but He only promised to walk with us and be with us until the end. He in no way promised that we would get it all right, all the time and from what I have seen and read, we are painting ourselves into the same corners that trapped the Jews of Jesus’ time.
I could sit back and play the gnostic and make my assertions into my own truth. That would be the path to self delusion.
That is why I put them out here.
St Augustine however, leaves the door open in his passage quoted in my original statement. Why did he leave the door open? Possibly because he knew the profound effect that this argument would have on faith and morals. As I scan through the various threads I can see the marks of his argument over and over again.
Now if St Augustine had a sense that science would progress and show that some things that he himself believed as true were not seen rightly when faced with the reality of the situation (and I think he did) then he would have left a door open for future debate and discussion.
Since the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally based on Genesis then Genesis can be rightfully put to the test against existing knowledge from age to age.
I can give the old and tired arguments of Galileo’s fight with the church but I believe that has been hashed to death and can see fault on both sides. The truth of Galileo isn’t so much a “I told you so!” thing. The fundamental effect of Galileo was that man could no longer make the claim that HE was the center of the universe. It was humbling that we turn out to be a small planet revolving around a small sun out of the arm of a spiral galaxy which is a relatively small galaxy in a family of big galaxies. While not a proven scientific fact, we still have to entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, God is gathering in His souls from many spots in this vast creation.
Equally, if the reality of the human condition is God directed Ascent rather then God punishment-reaction Descent then that brings about a fundamental change also. That change does not affect God, He still created us, He still decided to share His life with us, He still brought a selected part of humanity to one side and gave them what was needed to advance both theologically and mentally. He still became one of us through His Son and gave us the next step in our change. What changes is us. Again we are humbled from the sheer audacity that we could do anything that would make God angry. we may be forced to view ourselves as not the be all-end all of creation but see ourselves in the reality that we are the hairless apes that God chose to invest Himself in.
Before anyone can fall back on “doctrine”, it is important to realize that Jewish scholars and theologians developed traditions and doctrines that God blew off as simple nonsense. These were God’s chosen people. Now we are the new chosen but He only promised to walk with us and be with us until the end. He in no way promised that we would get it all right, all the time and from what I have seen and read, we are painting ourselves into the same corners that trapped the Jews of Jesus’ time.
I could sit back and play the gnostic and make my assertions into my own truth. That would be the path to self delusion.
That is why I put them out here.