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GaryTaylor
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Not really, just commenting on the disconnects in this conversation we both have been following, sorry.Are you asking me, Techno this ?
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GaryTaylor
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Well its seems to me when you speak of becoming an angel as a man, its no different than me saying my daughter is an angel. Which is symbolic not literal.
So, can you elaborate? What is an angel to you?
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arthra
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Thanks for the question…
I think you may have something along this line in the Catholic tradition… There are what are known as official interpretations that are “authoritative”…in the church.
Baha’i Faith has a history that is around a hundred and seventy years old…not very long in comparison with say Christianity… but consider your own history. Peter was declared the “Rock” of the church as in Matthew 16:18.
For Baha’is… Abdul-Baha the eldest Son of Baha’u’llah was the official interpreter of the Writings of His Father. Baha’u’llah left a instructions designating Abdul-Baha the Interpreter of His Writings…
Bahá’u’lláh appointed His Son
Abdu'l-Bahá as His successor: "When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended," He wrote in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, His Book of Laws, "turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root."9 In His Will and Testament, known as The Book of the Covenant, Bahá'u'lláh explained further that, "The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch Abdu’l-Bahá]."10This appointment invested
Abdu'l-Bahá with authority as the sole interpreter of Bahá'u'lláh's writings and the executor of Bahá'u'lláh's purpose in the establishment of the Bahá'í administrative order; moreover, in His personal life, His words and deeds, Abdu’l-Bahá was the perfect exemplar of the qualities and ideals of Bahá’í living. The combination of these functions in one person gave rise to a unique office in religious history – Center of the Covenant – and makes `Abdu’l-Bahá an unparalleled figure in all history.info.bahai.org/covenant-of-bahaullah.html
Abdul-Baha designated Shoghi Effendi as interpreter following Him.
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arthra
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Great question!
Let’s check the Writings…
YE ARE THE ANGELS
Verily, I, from this brilliant and Blessed Spot, speak to you face to face, while ye are in that far distant country, saying:
"O people of loyalty, O people of faithfulness, O people who are awakened by the Breath of God, O people who are inhaling the scent of life from the Spirit of God! The path hath become smooth, the way straightened, the carpet of the Kingdom is spread, the Tabernacle hath been elevated upon the Hill of Might, the powers of heaven have been shaken, the corners of the earth have quaked, the sun has been darkened, the moon ceased to give light, the stars have fallen, the nations of the earth have lamented, and the Son of Man hath come upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and He hath sent His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and no one knows the meaning of these emblems save the wise and informed.
“Ye are the angels, if your feet be firm, your spirits rejoiced, your secret thoughts pure, your eyes consoled, your ears opened, your breasts dilated with joy, and your souls gladdened, and if you arise to assist the Covenant, to resist dissension and to be attracted to the Effulgence! Verily, I say unto you that the Word of God has assuredly been explained and has become an evident sign and a strong and solid proof, and its traces shall be spread in the East and West, and to these all heads shall bow and all souls shall submit and kneel down with their faces to the ground.”
(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 359)
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Randy_Carson
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Billy Graham speaks eloquently and accurately about God, also.
He is not a manifestation of God.
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Randy_Carson
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Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
And what is that Gospel, Servant19?
Acts 4:8-12
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
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Servant19
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Yes I agree.
So what do you think it is then that attracts us to Baha’u’llah?
Are we stupid?
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Servant19
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We are not preaching a different Gospel to Paul.
YOU are…
Paul never said Jesus is God the Son. YOU say that, we don’t. Baha’is comply with the Gospel revealed to Paul…
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Servant19
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Randy_Carson
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And what is that Gospel, Servant19?
Acts 4:8-12
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
You will NOT be saved by the name of Baha’u’alla. That is another, false, gospel.
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Servant19
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Well it is a good job that a pre-requisite of being a Baha’i is to acknowledge the salvific grace showered upon our person by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
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Randy_Carson
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I spent about four hours this morning working back through the thread I started regarding Jesus’ claims to be God. Near the end of the thread as it now stands, you’ll find 8-10 responses that I posted specifically for you. You may have seen them.
One of those was this:
Another proof of Jesus’ divinity can be found in the last two chapters of the book of Revelation. According to Revelation 21:6-7, Almighty God reveals himself to us in plain terms:
“And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’”
The Alpha and the Omega declares, "I will be his God. Who is this Alpha and Omega?
A few verses later, we find Jesus revealing himself to be "the Alpha and the Omega:
Revelation 22:6, 13, 16
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end . . . I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”
So, Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega, the fully human offspring in the line of David, declares that He is also fully God of those who conquer (by overcoming sin).
Jesus is God.
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Now, Servant19, you have two choices:
*]You can either do some work it will take to understand what the Catholic Church has always understood and taught about the divinity of Jesus.
*]Or you can continue to pretend that none of the early followers of Christ from Peter and Paul on down to the Council of Nicaea actually believed that Jesus was God and to immerse yourself instead in the writings of a false prophet by whom you cannot be saved.
Your call.
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Randy_Carson
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1 John 4:1-3
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world.
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world.
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Servant19
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Thankyou Randy,
I’ve just started work so I will be on and off this morning looking through the other threads which you kindly contributed to
I must say that I cannot understand how you are reading some of these verses from the Bible with little precision.
In Revelation 21:6-7, There is clear distinction between the Alpha and the Omega which we do consider our God (WILL BE our God, not IS God, there is epistemology here. God has made His Word our God) and the Son who is the Incarnation of that epistemological God. There is no ontology in this verse, and if read with precision, it is very very clear.
Secondly, I find it interesting that this verse actually has as one of it’s translations as:
“…and I will be his God and he shall be one of My sons.”
This is from the Weymouth New Testament which is a direct translation from the Greek (not from the Latin)…
Anyway, just for your consideration…
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Servant19
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Randy, can you show me where the Baha’i teachings say that Jesus has NOT come in the flesh please??
Thankyou
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Servant19
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Randy_Carson
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I just posted the following on the other thread:
I personally believe that “masters” or “gurus” like this are led astray from a very early age by evil spirits who represent themselves as messengers of God. Because angels are vastly superior to us, it is easy for them to teach and reveal all sorts of things to the young, potential guru to win his or her confidence. Later, that “wisdom” will also astound those who hear it and win followers who accept such knowledge as miraculous. But it is not from God.
So, are you stupid? Probably not. Gullible? Maybe. Spiritually searching? Yes. Misguided and deceived. Oh, yeah. Big time. :sad_yes:
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Randy_Carson
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Since I have shown you multiple verses wherein John states that Jesus is God, perhaps you can show me how the Baha’i believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Oh, that’s right…you don’t.Randy, can you show me where the Baha’i teachings say that Jesus has NOT come in the flesh please??
Thankyou
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Jesus is the Word.
The Word is God.
Jesus became flesh.
Therefore, God became flesh.
That’s incarnation. Not manifestation.
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Servant19
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Yes but the verse you quoted does not say that Randy.
It clearly and unequivocally says that EVERY SPIRIT THAT SAYS THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH IS FROM GOD.
Here’s how the logic goes Randy. Baha’u’llah undeniably teaches that Jesus came in the flesh therefore He is from GOD.
There is no two ways about it.
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