Was Baha'u'llah a Saint ?

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the quotation of bahuallah provided by techno ignores Jesus’ words to the Jews that He is greater than Abraham or moses. Jesus in no way taught that He is the same as or merely equal to the earlier “manifestations” (and I use this word reluctantly because it makes it seem I buy in to the bahai nonsense about all manifestations being the same which on its very face is absurd).

however, there is an element of truth in this bahai doctrine of manifestations. that element is that God does raise up men and women from time to time throughout human history so as to enact His providential will for His human creatures.

certainly history tells us that noah was such a person as well as Abraham, Elijah, david, and Isaiah and the Hebrew prophets. however, since Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the earlier prophets and men of God, since His Ascension it is right to understand that those men and women who are teaching the teachings of almighty God are doing so through faithful loyalty to the Church Jesus established. that would be the RCC. if someone, teaches outside of the authority of the RCC, we can have no confidence that their teachings are faithful to the teachings of the Lord.

it is true that God uses non-catholics to accomplish His Diving Plan, but not in the role of successors to the apostles. one of the best examples of this would be the emperor Constantine whereby God turned the entire impact of the Roman Empire to His advantage. we are often not privy to God’s intentions and how He plans to save the most souls possible. consequently, it may be that in God’s Divine Plan He intends to use people like mohammed, joseph smith and Bahaullah to grow His kingdom and to save souls. if so, it is our finite knowledge and understanding that does not allow us to see how he intends to accomplish this.

we can rest confident, however that, since Jesus, the RCC is the divinely designated arbiter of truth for mankind.
 
eddie_too said:
another point that the followers of bahuallah, who post here, do not understand is that NONE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT was written as apologetic texts, nor was any of it written as conversion texts.

unless the reader understands that the new testament was written for the edification of those people who had already accepted the teachings of the apostles and believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. the n.t. was not written to convert people. the writers of the n.t. knew that the people to and for whom they wrote already had received the teachings of the Divine Mysteries that the apostles had received from Jesus.

for that reason, it is completely nonsensical to take verses from the n.t. and act as though or treat them as though they were meant to be expositions of the dogmas of the Divine Mysteries the apostles had received from Jesus. the people whom the n.t. writers were addressing already knew about the Trinity and the Incarnation and the Physical Resurrection through their initial encounters with the apostles and their successors. it was the knowledge of the Divine Mysteries provided to them orally by the apostles that had introduced them to and brought them into the faith.

so, before even turning to sacred scripture, people should realize that whatever is in the n.t. is there for the edification of the faithful. it is not there for the purpose of defining dogmas.

will the followers of Bahaullah be able to comprehend the distinction I present above? probably not, none are so blind as those who will not see.
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Yep. None of the books of the NT were ever intended to be works of systematic theology.
 
This Religion screams…New Age, its seem like this was one of the beginnings of the New Age movement.
 
" No. Did Bahaullah do the works of God? No." …That was the whole point of this Question and Thread… Baha’u’llah… Talk the Talk…But didn’t… Walk the Walk.
 
I don’t have the stamina to argue with you on “grammar” and what not, Servant. Alot of things rely on common sense after really understanding what the Church teaches, instead of constantly trying to compare what bahaism taught with Christianity teachings like apple to orange. Your misunderstanding of Christianity boils from one of our many doctrines in regards to the Holy Trinity, in which you keep trying to compare it with the “teachings” of …whats his name again? Oh…Husayn Ali? shrugs whatever if I don’t even bother to look up online for the correct spelling. Just read Randy’s reply to your post. And when you finally get back from “building Husayn Ali’s kingdom”, please address from post 175 to 178 in forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=927013&page=12
 
Randy_Carson said:
Matthew 6:1-6
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I’m not sure if Christianity was your first religion, dear friend, but this is very basic trinitarian doctrine. One God - three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, you’re close: God and Son are two separate PERSONS - not “Entities” - in the One Godhead.

Your own analysis is incomplete and therefore flawed. Here’s an example of what you SHOULD have seen:

GOD IS BOTH GOD AND SAVIOR

Isaiah 45:15
Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.

There is one divine being who is both God and Savior.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

In this passage, there is still one divine being, but the distinction between “a…God” and “a Savior” appears stronger.

PAUL TEACHES THAT JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR AND GOD

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

After the Incarnation of Jesus, the distinction between “God the Father” and “Jesus our Savior” is complete; yet, as Isaiah illustrated, there is only one God who is both God and savior. Or does Paul understand God and Jesus to be two separate beings: 1) God the Father and 2) Christ Jesus our Savior?

Titus 2:10
and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

In this verse, Paul refers to “God our Savior”, but just a few verses earlier, he had spoken of “Christ Jesus our Savior”. Thus, we see that Paul equated “God our Savior” with “Christ Jesus our Savior”. Placing these two passages side by side, we see that for Paul, “God” = “Christ Jesus”.

Paul taught that Jesus is God.
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Hi Randy,

I have a few brief moments again, before I’m off for most of the day.

Firstly I am not being boastful about building God’s Kingdom, and I am sure the Catholic Church is not being boastful by stating that it is the largest charitable organisation in history. This is what is being done. Its the central fruit of our religions.
Its my way of apologising for not addressing some posts at the moment, because I have been punched around a fair bit for to doing so in the past.
Again, my apologies if this was in any way misconstrued 🙂

In regards to Isaiah, of course God was the Saviour before Jesus came. One must ask then, what was the purpose of Jesus if salvation was available to us all before His coming? (but that’s another thread)

Either way, Isaiah is hardly going to say “Jesus our Saviour” is He?

So when the power of salvation was bestowed upon Jesus, He became our Saviour. When Jesus came, and revealed Himself to man, what other Saviour is there.

Just because the Saviour was God before Jesus, and then it became Jesus when He came to earth, does not make Jesus God, it makes Jesus our new Saviour. This is progressive revelation. Jesus came to educate mankind on what the Incarnation of the Word is, a like for like Manifestation of the Attributes of God. God is Saviour, Jesus is Saviour, God is All-Wise, Jesus is All-Wise, God is All-Merciful, Jesus is All-Merciful, God is All-Loving, Jesus is All-Loving.

There is however, a clear distinction, the semblance of which is clearly found in the Letters of the Chief Apostles and expounded much more fully by Baha’u’llah. When we consider a Ginormous Perfect Mirror reflecting the Sun, and I am a small fleck of dust floating around in front of that Mirror, when I see the Sun, there is no distinction at all.

🙂

.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
It stretches credulity to think that Paul was parsing words, that he was speaking only epistemologically. Paul was speaking of realities, he said what he meant. And there is this, one must consider Scripture as a whole. According to your way of thinking, the entire Scripture was given to us by God in such a way that no one, not even the Apostles and the Church Fathers could understand their essential meaning - until Bahaullah came along. That simply is not credible. It is the same as saying that God didn’t know what he was doing. Besides that we know that Jesus did things that only God could do, which I have already mentioned. This is not to say that Bahaullah was not a good man or was not a very intelligent man, it is to say merely that he was wrong. Did Bahaullah fulfill the prophesies of the Old Testament? No. Did Bahaullah do the works of God? No.

Linus2nd
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Dear friend, Paul is not parsing, nor is he playing verbal gymnastics.

When you go to see the dentist, you walk into a room with a nurse AND THE dentist.

When Paul refers to God and Jesus, He says God AND THE Lord Jesus Christ.

When I am talking JUST ABOUT THE NURSE, I say he/she is the nurse and assistant.

When Paul talks JUST ABOUT THE FATHER, he says the God and Father.

Its very simple English, which Paul wasn’t even thinking about at all, he just wrote it assuming all would get it, but he did warn that many people just don’t get it, even in the early Church.

🙂

.
 
GuyNextDoor said:
I don’t have the stamina to argue with you on “grammar” and what not, Servant. Alot of things rely on common sense after really understanding what the Church teaches, instead of constantly trying to compare what bahaism taught with Christianity teachings like apple to orange. Your misunderstanding of Christianity boils from one of our many doctrines in regards to the Holy Trinity, in which you keep trying to compare it with the “teachings” of …whats his name again? Oh…Husayn Ali? shrugs whatever if I don’t even bother to look up online for the correct spelling. Just read Randy’s reply to your post. And when you finally get back from “building Husayn Ali’s kingdom”, please address from post 175 to 178 in forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=927013&page=12
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Well I guess if nothing else is left, one will eventually resort to bullying, disrespect and lack of charity.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

.
 
Techno2000 said:
To me it looks like he is saying Jesus was just a prophet, like all the rest.
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Techno,

Thanks for sharing the quotes from the Writings and the proper citations… It may be that you could consider though the following when you wrote above

“Jesus was** just **a prophet,…”

You might ask yourself what a Prophet is… If you were say in the presence of say Moses or another Prophet would you say

“oh he was just a prophet…”

Jesus makes an allusion to “prophet” in the Gospel of Mark 6th chapter…

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

And they took offense at Him.

4Jesus said to them,

"A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.…

…

In another place in the Gospel Jesus makes reference to Moses…

In the sixteenth chapter of Luke you can read:

“But he said to him,** ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”**
 
Servant19 said:
Well I guess if nothing else is left, one will eventually resort to bullying, disrespect and lack of charity.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

.
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Servant19, you see how the words of Truth are so clear and easy to understand ,there is no need to be esoteric and mystical, can you find us just one saying from Baha’u’llah that is a " PEARL OF WISDOM" ?
 
Servant19 said:
In regards to Isaiah, of course God was the Saviour before Jesus came. One must ask then, what was the purpose of Jesus if salvation was available to us all before His coming? (but that’s another thread)

Either way, Isaiah is hardly going to say “Jesus our Saviour” is He?

So when the power of salvation was bestowed upon Jesus, He became our Saviour. When Jesus came, and revealed Himself to man, what other Saviour is there.

Just because the Saviour was God before Jesus, and then it became Jesus when He came to earth, does not make Jesus God, it makes Jesus our new Saviour. This is progressive revelation. Jesus came to educate mankind on what the Incarnation of the Word is, a like for like Manifestation of the Attributes of God. God is Saviour, Jesus is Saviour, God is All-Wise, Jesus is All-Wise, God is All-Merciful, Jesus is All-Merciful, God is All-Loving, Jesus is All-Loving.

There is however, a clear distinction, the semblance of which is clearly found in the Letters of the Chief Apostles and expounded much more fully by Baha’u’llah. When we consider a Ginormous Perfect Mirror reflecting the Sun, and I am a small fleck of dust floating around in front of that Mirror, when I see the Sun, there is no distinction at all.
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So many errors in this post, I am not sure where to begin.

Lets start with this: Isaiah did mean Jesus when he foretold about him all those time.

Isaiah 9:6

**6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
**
Who do you think this child is? Yep Jesus. So who do you think Isaiah referred to when he said Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? That’s right, God.

This passage alone speaks of the Holy Trinity and of Jesus. Why would he be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? Common sense & precision reading will tell you that Jesus is God and one of the three Persons in the Holy Trinity. Isaiah himself recognized that.

Before you even go explaining with Husayn Ibn Ali’s station or Jesus’ station because God is one as in singular, it’s better if I explain below since I already know where this is heading.
**
Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Hear, O Israel: dThe Lord our God, the Lord is one.**

The Hebrew word saying that God is One is אֶחָד (echad) which means composite unity. It is the same word used in Genesis 2:24

**24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
**
The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is of the same essence. Jesus is God. What you are mistaken is that God is only 1 as in absolute unity, one and only…and thus comes all these Husayn Ali’s teachings of Stations here and sun ray there.

The Hebrew word you should be looking for as absolute unity is יָחִיד (yachid) which does not exist anywhere in the scriptures when describing God. However I will await for you to find me that word יָחִיד (yachid) in all the Hebrew texts and I will retract my post. 👍
 
Servant19 said:
I’m not sure if English is your mother tongue dear friend, but this is very basic grammar. I’m comfortable with the Father being God. This sentence does not say God and THE Father as if they are two Entities, this sentence says simply God and Father, meaning they are one and the same.

The references I am making all state God and THE Son:

Romans 1:7 God our Father AND THE Lord Jesus Christ

2Cor 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father OF OUR Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort…
(Here Paul asserts that God the Father is the God OF Jesus Christ)

Again I am only reading with precision.

The word “and” followed by the word “the” when referring to the Son, clearly assures us that God and Son are two separate Entities.
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Servant19 said:
Just because the Saviour was God before Jesus, and then it became Jesus when He came to earth, does not make Jesus God,
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The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that your assertion that God and Jesus must be two entities was incorrect.

So let me make sure I understand you: God was our savior according to Isaiah. Jesus is our new savior but not God. Is this the teaching of Baha’u’llah? Or did he get it from someone else?

Is this correct? Let’s take a look. Notice what Isaiah said, Servant:

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

Now, you can argue that Jesus became the savior after this was written all you want, but the fact of the matter is that God is not “in time” the way we are. All time is “now” to God. So, when He says that He knows of no other “Savior”, He means EVER. That alone is fatal to your argument. But there’s more:

Notice what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:20-21
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

If Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world to be our savior, then God knew of this “other” savior, Jesus, before He ever inspired the prophet Isaiah to write.

IOW, Servant, God either did or did not know of Jesus AS SAVIOR before Isaiah was ever born. Since God is omnipotent and not bound by time, it is not possible that God did not know that Jesus was our savior. OTOH, if Peter is correct that Jesus was chosen as Savior way BEFORE Isaiah wrote, then it means that Jesus must be God (sharing the divine nature with the Father and not as one person) because God declared through Isaiah that there is no other God and Savior besides Himself.

🙂
 
Servant-

In light of the “basic grammar” which I explained in my previous post, does Paul teach that Jesus is God in the following passage?

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Is Paul speaking of “two entities”? Or is he speaking of Jesus as “God and Savior” as one being in the same way that Isaiah spoke of “God and Savior” as one being?

🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Dear friend, Paul is not parsing, nor is he playing verbal gymnastics.

When you go to see the dentist, you walk into a room with a nurse AND THE dentist.

When Paul refers to God and Jesus, He says God AND THE Lord Jesus Christ.

When I am talking JUST ABOUT THE NURSE, I say he/she is the nurse and assistant.

When Paul talks JUST ABOUT THE FATHER, he says the God and Father.

Its very simple English, which Paul wasn’t even thinking about at all, he just wrote it assuming all would get it, but he did warn that many people just don’t get it, even in the early Church.

🙂

.
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Since you have not identified your exact source in Paul it is difficult to respond. But there was no doubt in Paul’s mind about the fact that Jesus Christ was God. Remember the scene when Christ knocked Paul off his horse and asked him, " Saul, why are you persecuting me? " Who do you think knocked Paul off his horse? And of course all the rest of the New Testament bears witness to the fact that Christ was God, the Son of the Father - two Persons, one God.

No Ba’hai here, or anywhere else, no Muslim has been able to disprove that fact. One must assume that other motives are at work.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Since you have not identified your exact source in Paul it is difficult to respond. But there was no doubt in Paul’s mind about the fact that Jesus Christ was God. Remember the scene when Christ knocked Paul off his horse and asked him, " Saul, why are you persecuting me? " Who do you think knocked Paul off his horse? And of course all the rest of the New Testament bears witness to the fact that Christ was God, the Son of the Father - two Persons, one God.

No Ba’hai here, or anywhere else, no Muslim has been able to disprove that fact. One must assume that other motives are at work.

Linus2nd
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More over the monotheistic god of Baha’i doesn’t testify to the Light of the World, as I see it he testifies to himself and others being the Light of the World and desires worship.

And mind you, all this while Islam believes in the Incarnation of Christ but also believes he is coming to judge the world and worthy of high praise. Which Baha’i agrees with,and also believe Mohammed should be worshipped. 🙂
 
So as to; “Was Baha’u’llah a Saint”? According to the Homoousian persuasion I would humbly suggest thats a negative. Which according to my reading I doubt they would disagree with. Course I may be wrong as to their disagreeing.
 
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