Was Baha'u'llah a Saint ?

[Nick44]

So this means that everyone who has ever lived and died is in Heaven,and all who are to die in the future will automatically go to Heaven ?

No, not at all. Galatians 6:7 is still operational: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

“The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.”

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought… They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 171

“The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world, that is to say, the torments of the other world, consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.” -Abdu’l-Baha, BWF, p 325

 

[Techno2000]

No, not at all. Galatians 6:7 is still operational: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

“The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.”

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought… They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 171

Galatians 6:7 is still operational: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

The same thing I told Servant19 I will tell you ,whenever Baha’i people run into trouble they turn to the Bible and words of Jesus,( which you say is flawed by the way).I don’t want to hear about Cathbaha’ism I want to hear about pure 100% Baha’i teaching.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The things you wonder about are valid concerns, but I can assure you that the Baha’i Writings denounce communism severely and advocate nothing of its principles. Who could have imagined centuries ago the existence of a Republic of 50 separate states, each with local and state government, each with their own foods, cultures and dialects, yet all willingly subservient to an ultimate federal authority? Change ‘states’ to ‘countries’ in the above. Could we not then envision a similar structure extended to the whole world?

The economic issues and inequalities in the world will never be solved by force or coercion. The Baha’i Writings call for a spiritual solution to economic problems. Exactly how this will come about and how long it will take is unknown.

Baha’u’llah outlined a two-step process leading to world unity. The first He called 'The Lesser Peace", a unity called for by all the people of the world as a means of survival (religion may have nothing to do with it) because conditions will become so intolerable because of war and other calamities that the people of the world will say “STOP”…“We can’t continue like this, it will kill us all…make changes”. This step will eliminate war.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/CP/cp-75.html

From this ‘Lesser Peace’ will slowly evolve into what Baha’u’llah called ‘The Most Great
Peace’, which is a material, social and religious unity. How long for this to happen? No one knows, only that it is inevitable, that it will evolve slowly, with willing participation and not by force.

peninsulabahai.org/H2Hhtml/slide393.html

Just as people in prior times couldn’t imagine the unity of the United States, I don’t think we have any way of imagining a unified world; it’s never existed before. Humanity has undergone successive steps of unity… from family, to tribe, to city-state, to nationhood. The next inevitable step is unity of the planet.

Again, exactly how these things will unfold in the future is unknown, and again, the time frame is also unknown. I don’t even think we could live in that world…we, at present, are far too uncivilized compared to that race of men destined to live in the future.

Baha’u’llah said that His main purpose was to reveal the teachings from God that will bring about the unity of the planet; not pious smoke-blowing, but actual instructions and blueprints as to how to bring it about…‘and the government shall be upon His shoulders’.

Saying that: Conditions are intolerable = universal Peace, doesn’t quite work. Conditions have always been intolerable and it has never solved anything. This is something you cannot hope to prove but must believe in based on faith.

Also in all this text you have not answered my central question. In your supposed Eutopia, how will you redistribute the wealth? How will you confiscate that wealth for the good of society (this is communism not matter how you slice it)? I argue, assuming that some divine miracle doesn’t happen that changes our nature, that you have to do it with force, with a gun and imprisonment. Are the bahai prepared in this government to take the wealth from people who do not comply with this rule? Are they prepared to do it by force? If so, do not talk about wealth equality.

That being said, the affairs of people are better handled locally than being entrusted to a far off seen force that might not have the affairs of particular people in mind.

 

[Nick44]

Galatians 6:7 is still operational: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

The same thing I told Servant19 I will tell you ,whenever Baha’i people run into trouble they turn to the Bible and words of Jesus,( which you say is flawed by the way).I don’t want to hear about Cathbaha’ism I want to here about pure 100% Baha’i teaching.

I don’t consider myself ‘in trouble’ at all. Just a simple guy trying to do my best. I’ve never seen any Baha’i say that the words of Jesus were ‘flawed’. No, No, No, we don’t believe that. At most, we might say that human understanding of some of His words are flawed, but Jesus Himself is, always has been, and always will be, PERFECT.

Note that Christians put the OT and the NT together into one Holy Book…two religions-one book–and Christians continually reference OT passages…as they should. We consider that the Book of God consists of many more chapters than just two, and that while certain aspects of previously revealed religious truths have been updated and expanded upon, those truths were never wrong for the time they were revealed.

“The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” -Shoghi Effendi

 

[Techno2000]

I don’t consider myself ‘in trouble’ at all. Just a simple guy trying to do my best. I’ve never seen any Baha’i say that the words of Jesus were ‘flawed’. No, No, No, we don’t believe that. At most, we might say that human understanding of some of His words are flawed, but Jesus Himself is, always has been, and always will be, PERFECT.

Note that Christians put the OT and the NT together into one Holy Book…two religions-one book–and Christians continually reference OT passages…as they should. We consider that the Book of God consists of many more chapters than just two, and that while certain aspects of previously revealed religious truths have been updated and expanded upon, those truths were never wrong for the time they were revealed.

“The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” -Shoghi Effendi

Fantastic this works out great for the Baha’i Religion,because the words Baha’u’llah are so vague and abstract
you have to borrow from the bible to answer any hard Questions. What does this say about the Baha’i Religion, it can stand on its own ?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t consider myself ‘in trouble’ at all. Just a simple guy trying to do my best. I’ve never seen any Baha’i say that the words of Jesus were ‘flawed’. No, No, No, we don’t believe that. At most, we might say that human understanding of some of His words are flawed, but Jesus Himself is, always has been, and always will be, PERFECT.

Note that Christians put the OT and the NT together into one Holy Book…two religions-one book–and Christians continually reference OT passages…as they should. We consider that the Book of God consists of many more chapters than just two, and that while certain aspects of previously revealed religious truths have been updated and expanded upon, those truths were never wrong for the time they were revealed.

“The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” -Shoghi Effendi

You consider only the books you like Holy books. If its a hindu book you have to reject it because not even a bahai can twist the statements in those things.

 

[Nick44]

Saying that: Conditions are intolerable = universal Peace, doesn’t quite work. Conditions have always been intolerable and it has never solved anything. This is something you cannot hope to prove but must believe in based on faith.

Also in all this text you have not answered my central question. In your supposed Eutopia, how will you redistribute the wealth? How will you confiscate that wealth for the good of society (this is communism not matter how you slice it)? I argue, assuming that some divine miracle doesn’t happen that changes our nature, that you have to do it with force, with a gun and imprisonment. Are the bahai prepared in this government to take the wealth from people who do not comply with this rule? Are they prepared to do it by force? If so, do not talk about wealth equality.

That being said, the affairs of people are better handled locally than being entrusted to a far off seen force that might not have the affairs of particular people in mind.

Trying to imagine exactly how the future nuts and bolts will be assembled to achieve planetary unity using present day minds is impossible. “On earth as it is in heaven” is promised in the Bible. Baha’is also believe it is God’s Will to have it happen. If so, it will happen, and will be a divine miracle, as you put it.

Can we imagine that wealthy and spiritually-minded people in the future will willingly share their wealth? I can. (we see a lot of philanthropy even today) Can we imagine laws put into effect, with the assent of all the worlds people, by legislation and not by force, that will equitably deal with exorbitant incomes through taxation, deal with poverty and dire want and eliminate starvation, allocate the worlds resources and devise the means for peace and prosperity for all? I can. (and please, this isn’t some sort of a communist type of thing., The Writings state that some will always have more than others…that possessors of talent must be rewarded…that all must work…that everyone will never be ‘equal’ in this world).

We won’t be alive to see all this happen, but from the next world we certainly will be able to observe how it all unfolds. It should be a most interesting thing to watch.

 

[Nick44]

You consider only the books you like Holy books. If its a hindu book you have to reject it because not even a bahai can twist the statements in those things.

The Baha’i Writings state that the Hindu religion is divine in origin. The problem is that it is so ancient that no one can with certainty vouch for the authenticity of what remains today. Without question, man-made additions, subtractions and interpretations have crept in over time.

Baha’is revere previous Manifestations and Holy Books, but we follow the Revelations of God through Baha’u’llah, the authenticity of whose Writings are not in doubt.

 

[Techno2000]

Trying to imagine exactly how the future nuts and bolts will be assembled to achieve planetary unity using present day minds is impossible. “On earth as it is in heaven” is promised in the Bible. Baha’is also believe it is God’s Will to have it happen. If so, it will happen, and will be a divine miracle, as you put it.

Can we imagine that wealthy and spiritually-minded people in the future will willingly share their wealth? I can. (we see a lot of philanthropy even today) Can we imagine laws put into effect, with the assent of all the worlds people, by legislation and not by force, that will equitably deal with exorbitant incomes through taxation, deal with poverty and dire want and eliminate starvation, allocate the worlds resources and devise the means for peace and prosperity for all? I can. (and please, this isn’t some sort of a communist type of thing., The Writings state that some will always have more than others…that possessors of talent must be rewarded…that all must work…that everyone will never be ‘equal’ in this world).

We won’t be alive to see all this happen, but from the next world we certainly will be able to observe how it all unfolds. It should be a most interesting thing to watch.

( (“On earth as it is in heaven”)) Here we go again you want to pick and choose what you want to use from the Bible that supports the Baha’i faith, and at the same time you reject other things in the Bible… like the Devil and Hell… you can’t have it both way.

 

[Techno2000]

The Baha’i Writings state that the Hindu religion is divine in origin. The problem is that it is so ancient that no one can with certainty vouch for the authenticity of what remains today. Without question, man-made additions, subtractions and interpretations have crept in over time.

Baha’is revere previous Manifestations and Holy Books, but we follow the Revelations of God through Baha’u’llah, the authenticity of whose Writings are not in doubt.

The authenticity of the source the writing of Baha’u’llah coming from God is in doubt.

 

[Nick44]

( (“On earth as it is in heaven”)) Here we go again you want to pick and choose what you want to use from the Bible that supports the Baha’i faith, and at the same time you reject other things in the Bible… like the Devil and Hell… you can’t have it both way.

Techno, we reject nothing from the Bible. We might have a different understanding of some things than you do, but that isn’t the same as rejection. Do we believe in a literal Hell with flames and devils? No. The Hell we do believe in is every bit as horrible, though…separation from God. Do we believe there is an evil personage, know as the Devil, roaming the earth looking to tempt men’s souls? No. The devil we do believe in is a metaphor for the animal/materialistic side of man’s nature that seeks to do what it likes, is not inclined to follow God’s commandments, and continually tempts man to sin and to ignore things of the spirit.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno, we reject nothing from the Bible. We might have a different understanding of some things than you do, but that isn’t the same as rejection. Do we believe in a literal Hell with flames and devils? No. The Hell we do believe in is every bit as horrible, though…separation from God. Do we believe there is an evil personage, know as the Devil, roaming the earth looking to tempt men’s souls? No. The devil we do believe in is a metaphor for the animal/materialistic side of man’s nature that seeks to do what it likes, is not inclined to follow God’s commandments, and continually tempts man to sin and to ignore things of the spirit.

2 Peter 3:16
He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, leading to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Techno2000]

The devil we do believe in is a metaphor for the animal/materialistic side of man’s nature that seeks to do what it likes, is not inclined to follow God’s commandments, and continually tempts man to sin and to ignore things of the spirit.

And so how does the Baha’i faith remedy this ?

 

[Techno2000]

If all these past Revelations and Manifestation come from the same" One True God "how come they don’t all mesh together in perfect harmony?

 

[Nick44]

And so how does the Baha’i faith remedy this ?

Excellent question, Techno.

“In the beginning of his human life man was embryonic in the world of the matrix. There he received capacity and endowment for the reality of human existence. The forces and powers necessary for this world were bestowed upon him in that limited condition. In this world he needed eyes; he received them potentially in the other. He needed ears; he obtained them there in readiness and preparation for his new existence. The powers requisite in this world were conferred upon him in the world of the matrix so that when he entered this realm of real existence he not only possessed all necessary functions and powers but found provision for his material sustenance awaiting him.”

“Therefore, in this world he must prepare himself for the life beyond. That which he needs in the world of the Kingdom must be obtained here. Just as he prepared himself in the world of the matrix by acquiring forces necessary in this sphere of existence, so, likewise, the indispensable forces of the divine existence must be potentially attained in this world.”

“What is he in need of in the Kingdom which transcends the life and limitation of this mortal sphere? That world beyond is a world of sanctity and radiance; therefore, it is necessary that in this world he should acquire these divine attributes. In that world there is need of spirituality, faith, assurance, the knowledge and love of God. These he must attain in this world so that after his ascension from the earthly to the heavenly Kingdom he shall find all that is needful in that eternal life ready for him.”

“That divine world is manifestly a world of lights; therefore, man has need of illumination here. That is a world of love; the love of God is essential. It is a world of perfections; virtues, or perfections, must be acquired. That world is vivified by the breaths of the Holy Spirit; in this world we must seek them. That is the Kingdom of everlasting life; it must be attained during this vanishing existence.”

“By what means can man acquire these things? How shall he obtain these merciful gifts and powers? First, through the knowledge of God. Second, through the love of God. Third, through faith. Fourth, through philanthropic deeds. Fifth, through self-sacrifice. Sixth, through severance from this world. Seventh, through sanctity and holiness. Unless he acquires these forces and attains to these requirements, he will surely be deprived of the life that is eternal. But if he possesses the knowledge of God, becomes ignited through the fire of the love of God, witnesses the great and mighty signs of the Kingdom, becomes the cause of love among mankind and lives in the utmost state of sanctity and holiness, he shall surely attain to second birth, be baptized by the Holy Spirit and enjoy everlasting existence.” -Abdu’l-Baha

 

[Techno2000]

Excellent question, Techno.

“In the beginning of his human life man was embryonic in the world of the matrix. There he received capacity and endowment for the reality of human existence. The forces and powers necessary for this world were bestowed upon him in that limited condition. In this world he needed eyes; he received them potentially in the other. He needed ears; he obtained them there in readiness and preparation for his new existence. The powers requisite in this world were conferred upon him in the world of the matrix so that when he entered this realm of real existence he not only possessed all necessary functions and powers but found provision for his material sustenance awaiting him.”

“Therefore, in this world he must prepare himself for the life beyond. That which he needs in the world of the Kingdom must be obtained here. Just as he prepared himself in the world of the matrix by acquiring forces necessary in this sphere of existence, so, likewise, the indispensable forces of the divine existence must be potentially attained in this world.”

“What is he in need of in the Kingdom which transcends the life and limitation of this mortal sphere? That world beyond is a world of sanctity and radiance; therefore, it is necessary that in this world he should acquire these divine attributes. In that world there is need of spirituality, faith, assurance, the knowledge and love of God. These he must attain in this world so that after his ascension from the earthly to the heavenly Kingdom he shall find all that is needful in that eternal life ready for him.”

“That divine world is manifestly a world of lights; therefore, man has need of illumination here. That is a world of love; the love of God is essential. It is a world of perfections; virtues, or perfections, must be acquired. That world is vivified by the breaths of the Holy Spirit; in this world we must seek them. That is the Kingdom of everlasting life; it must be attained during this vanishing existence.”

“By what means can man acquire these things? How shall he obtain these merciful gifts and powers? First, through the knowledge of God. Second, through the love of God. Third, through faith. Fourth, through philanthropic deeds. Fifth, through self-sacrifice. Sixth, through severance from this world. Seventh, through sanctity and holiness. Unless he acquires these forces and attains to these requirements, he will surely be deprived of the life that is eternal. But if he possesses the knowledge of God, becomes ignited through the fire of the love of God, witnesses the great and mighty signs of the Kingdom, becomes the cause of love among mankind and lives in the utmost state of sanctity and holiness, he shall surely attain to second birth, be baptized by the Holy Spirit and enjoy everlasting existence.” -Abdu’l-Baha

So the answer is that man should live more Saintly lives, kinda stating the the obvious,give me the details of the Baha’i way to overcome the 7 Deadly Sins.

 

[Techno2000]

The Hell we do believe in is every bit as horrible, though…separation from God. .

This is too vague can you give more detail ?

 

[Ignatius]

Was Baha’u’llah a Saint ?

Nope!

 

[Nick44]

So the answer is that man should live more Saintly lives, kinda stating the the obvious,give me the details of the Baha’i way to overcome the 7 Deadly Sins.

Conscious volition to not yield to temptation, prayer, reading the holy Writings, asking for divine assistance and guidance, and when we fail, to pray for forgiveness and the determination to try again.

The Faith has many, many prayers to provide help for the journey.

“Lord! Pitiful are we, grant us Thy favor; poor, bestow upon us a share from the ocean of Thy wealth; needy, do Thou satisfy us; abased, give us Thy glory. The fowls of the air and the beasts of the field receive their meat each day from Thee and all beings partake of Thy care and loving kindness.”

“Deprive not this feeble one of Thy wondrous grace and vouchsafe by Thy might unto this helpless soul Thy bounty.”

“Give us our daily bread and grant Thine increase in the necessities of life, that we may be dependent on none other than Thee, may commune wholly with Thee, may walk in Thy ways and declare Thy mysteries. Thou art the Almighty and the Loving and the Provider of all mankind.” -Abdu’l-Baha

 

[Techno2000]

Conscious volition to not yield to temptation, prayer, reading the holy Writings, asking for divine assistance and guidance, and when we fail, to pray for forgiveness and the determination to try again.

The Faith has many, many prayers to provide help for the journey.

“Lord! Pitiful are we, grant us Thy favor; poor, bestow upon us a share from the ocean of Thy wealth; needy, do Thou satisfy us; abased, give us Thy glory. The fowls of the air and the beasts of the field receive their meat each day from Thee and all beings partake of Thy care and loving kindness.”

“Deprive not this feeble one of Thy wondrous grace and vouchsafe by Thy might unto this helpless soul Thy bounty.”

“Give us our daily bread and grant Thine increase in the necessities of life, that we may be dependent on none other than Thee, may commune wholly with Thee, may walk in Thy ways and declare Thy mysteries. Thou art the Almighty and the Loving and the Provider of all mankind.” -Abdu’l-Baha

So these are prayers written by Abdu’l-Baha?