Was Brigham Young a Racist?

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I could ask the same question of Catholics, Is your Pope racist?
Have any of your popes been racist? I think there was a lot of racism in the 1800s and indeed throughout the ages of time. The Mormon people came from all religious backgrounds and of course believed the things that all people including Catholics believed about others who were different. Slavery was practiced in those days and blacks had not been emacipated. Several blacks were members of the Church in those days and went west with Brigham Young.
In my six years of attending Catholic Mass, I have only seen one black priest, in the Popes funeral there was one black cardinal. Does this mean the Catholic Church is racist? I do not hold the priesthood myself(a woman)should I consider this a racist or sexist thing. There are many black families in my ward and they do hold the priesthood now and have all of the same fellowship that any other family has. If the black people understand the changing of all whites attitudes and acceptance of blacks or jews or any race different than our own, who are you to call someone a racist who lived in the 1800s. Your own family may have been racist then. In my case, being raised in Idaho where there were few black people. One family moved into town when I was in high school and the kids in my school did summersaults to make them feel at home and welcome in our community. We were not all mormons but a majority were, I would not say that was racist.
I know many Catholics in different parts of the country who I would consider racist, and I think it is a matter of upbringing. Did your parents teach you to accept all races, or did they say stay away from such and such?
In the 1800s I think people grew up thinking of blacks as slaves and inferior to whites, because that was the prevailing thought patteren being taught in homes and society. Racist practices continued into the 1960s and even now, I am sure Catholics weren’t and aren’t exempt from racism. Things change and I am sure the Popes that were racist changed as times changed.
Again what was the point of this thread, except to heap dirt on the Mormons? Be careful when you live in a glass house where you throw your stones. Some of you seem to be bent on being as mean and spiteful in your posts as you possibly can. You are practicing racism against Mormons by your wicked posting. Do you think of yourselves as racist?
No, you are Christians and follow Jesus teachings, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” “Love thy neighbor as thyself” How many of you think this thread follows that precept? I can’t see any sign of Christians here. BJ
 
BJ, much as I would like to adress some specific points in your post, I think that you are already feeling beseiged and would thus view them as attacks. There are some other threads where you and I may have gotten somewhat crosswise so… in the interest of christianity let me apologize to you for any hurt feelings you may have. You most certainly are a child of God and loved by Jesus. These are things that we can all agree on. I certainly don’t share your opinions on very many theological issues but that is NOT a personal condemnation. I pray that the Lord blesses you and your family with all that you may stand in need of in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

We good now? 🙂
 
Majick,
It’s what Mormons do. They come into a Catholic forum, or knock on your door, or try to “friendship” your impressionable kids. Then they tell you that your Church is apostate and the whore of all the earth, your doctrines are “abominations”, your clergy is corrupt and your mind is darkened by sin and the errors of men. Then when you merely quote the words of their own prophets to them, they scream “PERSECUTION!!!” and accuse you of all manner of mental cruelty. It is the oldest cult tactic in the world. And it usually works.
Paul
 
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PaulDupre:
when you merely quote the words of their own prophets to them, they scream “PERSECUTION!!!” and accuse you of all manner of mental cruelty.
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Yup, this happens every time I have either online or face-to-face conversations with Mormons.
 
Paul,

Please. This is simply unture. I have many friends and family that are LDS and they have never tried to convert me or my kids. My best friend is LDS and our families spend a lot of time together. They know we’re Catholic and that’s that. I have never felt pressured. I have had conversations about religion with most of my LDS friends and family but they have always treated me with respect. I don’t know what LDS you’ve been talking to but they’re nothing like the LDS I know.
 
As far as the answer to the question posed at the beginning of this thread goes. Of course Brigham Young was a racist. The vast majority of US citizens that lived in the 19th century were racist. It was very common to demonize and vilify those of a different race, creed, religion, social class, you name it. Many protestant church leaders were racist. The Catholic church stood in stark contrast to many of the protestant churches of the day in it’s defense of minorities.

But, it’s obvious that BY was racist. How can one believe that the only reason that people have dark skin is because God cursed them and NOT be a racist, NOT think you are somehow better than they are? Should we condemn BY for being a racist? No, he was just being “normal” for the time and place. Is it evidence that he was not a true prophet? Perhaps. One would think a true prophet would look past the social norms of the time and live and believe as Christ taught.
 
Majick275 and Tamaque,
Thank you, I appreciate your comments and your fairness. You are examples of good Catholics, just as my husband is.
I do get hurt by some of the attacks on my beliefs. On the other hand I appreciate good back and forth exchanges of information. There is a difference in hateful attacks and good natured exchanges of real information.
I have learned a lot through these posts both about Catholics and also about my own religion, so I think on the whole it is a good forum. There just have been some really mean-spirited people posting here lately. I think we have all noticed the change. I hope we can keep it on a higher plain by just giving accurate, in context, unslanted information.
I do not try to presume to tell a Catholic what he believes and I do not like being told by a Catholic what I believe. That is the sore spot. When I ask a question about the Catholic religion, I sit back and listen to the answer. I do not then go about telling that person they are wrong and that they really believe such and such. Why would someone want to do that unless they just want a fight? Do you really want to know what Mormons believe or do you just want to cause discension between LDS and Catholics. My best friends and my husband are Catholics and I do not judge them by the things said in this forum. I know the majority of Catholics are good Christians as most of you are.
Thanks again for your kind posts. BJ
 
I would like a specific date, place, time and the names of the LDS people who did this to you, and said this to you. They are wicked people and should be excommunicated if their Bishop was told. Please tell me and I will report them immediately.l
BJ
 
Okay, now that we all understand the importance of playing nice together perhaps we can engage in some “spirited” discussion without it getting “mean spirited”.

That being said I want to address the original topic. (with a little expansion of my own) Yes Brigham Young was a racist…as was George Washington, General Patton, Goerge Wallace, etc. etc. etc.
That is not in my opinion that big an issue as he was a product of his time and circumstance.(Jesus had to chastise some of his Apostles for holding racist views)

I think the more relevant question would be to ask if LDS Doctrine is racist. Bruce R. Mconkie (sp?) wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine that would appear to indicate that. (Certain races are “cursed” with dark skin and their bodies are inhabited by the spirits of those who were “less valiant” in the pre-existence and they were at one time on spiritual “restriction” until the Lord felt it was time for them to be treated equally)

This view has been held by many “general authorities” of the LDS church over the years as evidenced by their talks in church and the books that they have written…HOWEVER, The LDS church has stated that Mconkie was NOT commissioned to write Mormon Doctrine by the church, he says himself in the preface that it is his own work for which he takes full responsibility. There are some indications of this line of thought in the Book of Mormon where it speaks of the Lamanites being cursed and in some places states that those who repent may become “white and delightsome.” But I haven’t seen clear LDS scriptural backing for the “less valiant” spirits or priesthood restriction issues.

This leaves us with what I believe to be a real question on LDS doctrine. Can anyone provide an “authoratative” source that states what the LDS doctrine on race truly is?
 
I think the more relevant question would be to ask if LDS Doctrine is racist.
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Absolutely that is the bigger question the reason I brought up Brigham Young is that the man formed the opinions and doctrine of Mormonism and his racist views helped form the Mormon Doctrine of racism and exlucsion of backs from postions of honor in the Mormon church. OF course this is an extension of Joseph Smiths writings which are rooted in racism also.
Their are racist in every relgion so that is not the point. The point is does Mormon doctrine based on the teachings of its founders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Teach racism?

By the way for those of you that critisized the catholic church falsely we have had 3 black catholic popes our church fathers with the most influence on the Latin tradition are also black St Athanasius and St Augustine. The early church had no problem with Agfrican catholci they were dominated at least theologically by black african fathers of the church. What happened to make the church appear to be so European and white for so many years? One word Islam. Islam wiped out the Africn territories of the Catholic church thus the lands that Augustine and Athanasius once belonged to were now under Islamic control and most converted to Islam and catholocisim was all but lost in Africa until the recent reevangelization of Africa by the catholci church this century but still we haven’t gotten back toe reevangelizing many of the northenr african countires which are now Islamic.
But at all times during church history race did not exclude one from any postion in the church and as the church’s population increases in the developed world we have seen more postion of prestiege such as Cardinal go to people of color.
IT will be a just matter of time that a POpe once again comes from Africa. Racism as dogma has never existed in the catholic church but it has until very recently been the dogma of the Mormon church. J
 
If you own a copy of the Journal of Discourses on CD-ROM, do a search on the term “Nigger”. You fill find that Brigham Young used it, and refered to those who wanted an end to slavery as “nigger - lovers”.

He was a racist. Period. This by itself (of course) does not prove the LDS church false. But I think it is high time members of the LDS church start to own up to these things.

Many mormons think that their own history is flawless while they attack the Catholic Church because it admits it has had leaders and members who have been horrible. It is not solely their fault. Much of the blame must fall upon the leaders of the LDS church who create a faith building fantasy land of their own history, and excommunicate honest LDS historians.

Vidar
 
I think the most telling example of this is the case of Elijah Abel. He was a former slave who joined the LDS church, received the “higher” priesthood wiht the express approval of Joseph Smith. He migrated west with BY as a loyal follower. When they finally had a temple ready he asked to be sealed to his wife before she died (she was ill at the time) and was denied by BY. His descendants were allowed to be ordained into both priesthoods but were also denied Temple ordinances. This certainly creates a perception of different philosophies between these two “prophets”.

In any event, it’s an interesting story.
 
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Casen:
Why was the tribe of Levi the only one allowed in the temple in ancient Israel? Was it because the other tribes were inferior? Perhaps racism against the other tribes? Or could there have been another reason?
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yes there was. The israelite strayed away from God so many times and many times they were forgiven. But if you remember the Golden Calf incident when Moses asked the israelites “whoever is with God let them come to me”(paraphrased) only the levites stood with moses. That is when the priesthood was limited to the levites because they where the only ones who stood for God.

Nothing really to do with race or color as BY thought it to be. BY thought of dark colored skinned people to be cursed. I don’t think that we can compare that to Moses’ and the Levites situation. But like what has been asked before, why did it take a 100+ years befor ethe LDS church could accept blacks into the priesthood? Just want to know and no punn intended to LDS on this thread.
 
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Casen:
We don’t believe our leaders are infallible.
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This is something I thank God for. That the Pope and the magesterium of the Church(Catholic) is infallible. This just tells me that i don’t have to doubt, when it comes to faith and moral, if they said that something is wrong. I just know that it is wrong…e.g. contraception(sorry to other catholics who disagree).

Casen, I just want to know if you do understand the teaching of Papal infallibility of the RCC. If the Pope was infallible in algebra and he was given a test of a 100 points. What is the least score that he would get?

Other people can also answer.
 
Maccabees said:
Brigham Young said about black people in his own Journal of Discourses, 7:291
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the ‘servant of servants;’ and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood.” - 09/19/2003 - anon

Ouch!

It appears not only was he racist but your entire church not until 1978 where blacks given permission to the priesthood and this only after the governemnt once again threatened the cult with revoking its tax exempt status.

Explanation for bigotry in modern times?
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Without a doubt, Brigham Young made some remarks that were “racist.” I don’t believe, however, that it’s exactly unprejudiced to accuse an “entire church” of racism. How do you personally justify such a remark? You don’t even know me, and I’m part of that church.
 
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Maccabees:
What was official doctrine until 1978 was that blacks were inferior so much so that they could not be priest.
Now explain to me why blacks were not allowed to the priesthood besides the obvious beleif in racism and perhpas you have a point. But I think your dancing around the issue here.
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Prior to 1978, the Church had a policy which prohibited Blacks from holding the Priesthood. There is no record of any revelation authorizing this prohibition in the Doctrine and Covenants (which is where it would most likely be found). This is not an easy thing for me to say, but it’s the truth.

The first paragraph from the 1978 Declation states, “As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.”

I believe that when the leadership of the Church humbly went to the Lord and asked for direction in this regard, it was given to them. It is unfortunate that it didn’t happen earlier, but then most of the time it appears that the Lord chooses not to reveal His will to His prophets until they ask Him for guidance. I hope this clears up the matter for you.
 
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Katzpur:
Without a doubt, Brigham Young made some remarks that were “racist.” I don’t believe, however, that it’s exactly unprejudiced to accuse an “entire church” of racism. How do you personally justify such a remark? You don’t even know me, and I’m part of that church.
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Yet it is the DOCTRINE of your church that dark skin is a curse from God to mark races of sinners. The lamanites were decribed in your scriptures as “loathsome” because of this. Black people are described as having been “less valiant” in the pre-existence. Your personal beliefs are up to you and we welcome your sharing them with us. Your church doctrine is already published for all to see.
 
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Katzpur:
Prior to 1978, the Church had a policy which prohibited Blacks from holding the Priesthood. There is no record of any revelation authorizing this prohibition in the Doctrine and Covenants (which is where it would most likely be found). This is not an easy thing for me to say, but it’s the truth.

That’s because it’s in the PoGP rather than the D&C. Many of your prophetrs were quite explicit in defining this doctrine. What we seem to be missing is the “revelation” removing the restriction. We have the “proclamation” slipped in to the end of your D&C saying that a revelation had been received but we have yet to see it.

The first paragraph from the 1978 Declation states, “As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.”

I believe that when the leadership of the Church humbly went to the Lord and asked for direction in this regard, it was given to them. It is unfortunate that it didn’t happen earlier, but then most of the time it appears that the Lord chooses not to reveal His will to His prophets until they ask Him for guidance. I hope this clears up the matter for you.
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So you believe that it took until 1978 for a “true” prophet of the Lord to bother asking the Lord to give the priesthood and temple blessings to people of color? and these are the prophets you place your faith in?
 
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majick275:
Yet it is the DOCTRINE of your church that dark skin is a curse from God to mark races of sinners. The lamanites were decribed in your scriptures as “loathsome” because of this. Black people are described as having been “less valiant” in the pre-existence. Your personal beliefs are up to you and we welcome your sharing them with us. Your church doctrine is already published for all to see.
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I believe that I am in a better position to say what LDS doctrine is than you are. The Lamanites were described as “loathsome” because of their wickedness.

There is no LDS doctrine that speaks of Blacks as having been “less valient in the pre-existence.” That may be one man’s opinion, but that’s all it is.
 
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majick275:
So you believe that it took until 1978 for a “true” prophet of the Lord to bother asking the Lord to give the priesthood and temple blessings to people of color? and these are the prophets you place your faith in?
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In essence, yes. We don’t expect perfection from our Prophets. I’m certainly hoping that you don’t expect perfection from your Popes. I wouldn’t want to place my faith in some of them either!
 
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