Was Death Present in the Garden of Eden, before the fall?

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I haven’t dealt with the Scriptural support for the “pro-prehuman death” position before now, because I was trying to draw out a very important point about the unity of faith and reason. But JM3 has studiously avoided addressing any of that, and has sunk to name-calling instead, so I might as well mention it now.

The death of beasts and plants existed on Earth prior to the Fall. We can draw no clear conclusions about death within the Garden of Eden, especially since we know so little about the literal reality of Eden. But we can certainly conclude, on examination of the Sacred Deposit, Genesis, Humani Generis, and the plain observed facts of reality, that there was death. The Fall brought human death into the world.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

FIDES ET RATIO
  1. Surveying the situation today, we see that the problems of other times have returned, but in a new key. It is no longer a matter of questions of interest only to certain individuals and groups, but convictions so widespread that they have become to some extent the common mind. An example of this is the deep-seated distrust of reason which has surfaced in the most recent developments of much of philosophical research, to the point where there is talk at times of “the end of metaphysics”. Philosophy is expected to rest content with more modest tasks such as the simple interpretation of facts or an enquiry into restricted fields of human knowing or its structures.
In theology too the temptations of other times have reappeared. In some contemporary theologies, for instance, a certain rationalism is gaining ground, especially when opinions thought to be philosophically well founded are taken as normative for theological research. This happens particularly when theologians, through lack of philosophical competence, allow themselves to be swayed uncritically by assertions which have become part of current parlance and culture but which are poorly grounded in reason.(72)

There are also signs of a resurgence of fideism, which fails to recognize the importance of rational knowledge and philosophical discourse for the understanding of faith, indeed for the very possibility of belief in God. One currently widespread symptom of this fideistic tendency is a “biblicism” which tends to make the reading and exegesis of Sacred Scripture the sole criterion of truth. In consequence, the word of God is identified with Sacred Scripture alone, thus eliminating the doctrine of the Church which the Second Vatican Council stressed quite specifically. Having recalled that the word of God is present in both Scripture and Tradition,(73) the Constitution Dei Verbum continues emphatically: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture comprise a single sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church. Embracing this deposit and united with their pastors, the People of God remain always faithful to the teaching of the Apostles”.(74) Scripture, therefore, is not the Church’s sole point of reference. The “supreme rule of her faith” (75) derives from the unity which the Spirit has created between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church in a reciprocity which means that none of the three can survive without the others.(76)
 
Does this mean that you accept or reject the dating of fossil predators back at least hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans?
I neither accept or reject the dating, as it is based on the current knowledge of our culture. What I reject is the assumption that ‘at least hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans’ is absolute truth.
 
I neither accept or reject the dating, as it is based on the current knowledge of our culture. What I reject is the assumption that ‘at least hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans’ is absolute truth.
Who ever suggested it was absolute truth? That is not how science works – all knowledge is provisional. It’s religions that make absolute claims, not science.
 
The death of beasts and plants existed on Earth prior to the Fall.
This is what I object to. A statement declared as truth without any supportive evidence. Can there be evidence of an incorruptible nature after that nature has been fully corrupted? Can you date the creation of Man? Can you date the ‘Fall of Man’? What are the methods of dating that you are using? Are they valid methods? By what authority are they valid or invalid?

You assume too much when you make declarations of truth based on incomplete human knowledge.

Here’s a thought. Isaiah 11:6-7. Are the nature of the animals changed or are they returned to what they should be?
 
I ask this question, because hair is made up of dead cells, and Adam was naming animals, many of which I am sure had hair, as I am sure he had hair. So cells were dying, and multiplying,.
Are you concocting a silly premise for some reason?

Your question could have been useful if you had asked if any created life had died before the fall.

Your question is silly from a theological viewpoint. Let alone from a scientific one.

Unless you are willing to put forth a theory that all living things must have hair.

I await your findings with baited breath.
 
Who ever suggested it was absolute truth? That is not how science works – all knowledge is provisional. It’s religions that make absolute claims, not science.
JM3 said it was an “assumption”

Another interesting topic, for another day.

JM3 never used the loaded language of absolute truth in her or his post.

You must be clear when you are posting as a lover of science.

You were not clear StAnastasia.
 
This is what I object to. A statement declared as truth without any supportive evidence. Can there be evidence of an incorruptible nature after that nature has been fully corrupted? Can you date the creation of Man? Can you date the ‘Fall of Man’? What are the methods of dating that you are using? Are they valid methods? By what authority are they valid or invalid?

You assume too much when you make declarations of truth based on incomplete human knowledge.

Here’s a thought. Isaiah 11:6-7. Are the nature of the animals changed or are they returned to what they should be?
Correction: incorruptible is the wrong word. It should have been pre-corruptible.
 
Show how the question was stated as such.
Does this mean that you accept or reject the dating of fossil predators back at least hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans?
How do you understand it?
  1. That the dating took place hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans.
  2. That the dating is proof that predators existed hundreds of millions of years ago and that humans did not.
  3. By rejecting the dating, you are rejecting the existence of fossils.
  4. By accepting the dating, you believe anything that anyone tells you.
 
This is what I object to. A statement declared as truth without any supportive evidence. Can there be evidence of an incorruptible nature after that nature has been fully corrupted? Can you date the creation of Man? Can you date the ‘Fall of Man’? What are the methods of dating that you are using? Are they valid methods? By what authority are they valid or invalid?

You assume too much when you make declarations of truth based on incomplete human knowledge.

Here’s a thought. Isaiah 11:6-7. Are the nature of the animals changed or are they returned to what they should be?
False premise after false premise.
Support the “incorruptible nature”
Support the notion that nature has been fully corrupted.

And you dare to ask about scientific means of understanding the real world around us?
 
Death DID enter the world on account of Man’s Sin, but man did not originate death.

Satan is the AUthor of death. His fall sent out a discordant Cosmic ripple, because it was the first note to “go sour” in the symphony of creation.

“By the Envy of the Devil, death came into the world.” is what scripture says. And the devil brought it to man who accepted it for this world, and he was the gate of sin. THerefore Christ, the new adam, is the gate of heaven and the church is the gate to Christ.
This is a very interesting point that I have honestly not heard presented before. It’s also ironic, since I just read this passage quoted by Clement, and yet it never really registered when I have thought about the nature of death and the Fall. Thank you very much for this (name removed by moderator)ut, it has given me much to think about. Blessings.
 
This is a very interesting point that I have honestly not heard presented before. It’s also ironic, since I just read this passage quoted by Clement, and yet it never really registered when I have thought about the nature of death and the Fall. Thank you very much for this (name removed by moderator)ut, it has given me much to think about. Blessings.
Let us know what you end up thinking about it. Some of us have been thinking about this for a long time.
 
Do any Catholics actually still think that no other humans were ever created by God except two? In other words, does anyone still believe that when Adam and Eve left the Garden, there were no other humans to breed with and that ALL of humanity for ever after came ONLY from the inter-family breeding of that original set of two parents, children, grandchildren?
Well, yes. In fact, if you ask a question, “Do any Catholics actually think [X]?”, where X is any idea under the sun, the answer is almost definitely going to be “yes.” The question is, is it a reasonable belief?

It does not seem unreasonable to me, at the moment. Firstly, science doesn’t really seem to know how modern homo sapiens came to be. There seems to be one theory whereby they originated from a single point (and, from what I can tell, a single pair) in Africa, and another which suggests that homo sapiens arose concurrently in several parts of the world from a cross-pollination of various gene pools (the so-called “multiregional” hypothesis). I honestly don’t know enough about it to say which seems more likely, but from what little I’ve read it seems that the jury is still out.

But I’m not sure science actually has much to say to this – at least not paleontology. Adam and Eve were not necessarily members of the species homo sapiens, nor, if they were homo sapiens, were they necessarily the first members of the species. The tale of the Garden does not suggest the origin story of a unique and particular biological form which would not even be completely defined until several millenia after the writing of Genesis. The story is supposed to give the origin of the first creatures to be sapient and ensouled. Moreover, these creatures, according to tradition, may have been endowed with other special, preternatural gifts, and, Scripture would seem to indicate, were not mortal. So this was the dawn of a new era and a new sort of being, but not necessarily a new species. It may be that two ape-like creatures of the species homo sapiens were picked out of the wilds of Spain 30,000 years ago (by God) and suddenly ensouled, thereby made capable of the symbolic language which separates us from beasts and BAM! there’s humanity as we know it. My point is that science can only tell us about the origin and development of the biological species. Science is not really clear on that point yet, and, even if it were, it would tell us nothing about the dawn of sapient, ensouled Man in the Biblical sense.

So, were there only two parents of all modern, sapient, lingual human beings? I don’t know. Despite its many successes, paleontology is not equipped to deal with the question, even in principle, because it’s not a question of biology or the fossil record. The Church, as expressed in Humani Generis, is suspicious of accounts that involve more than two parents, but is not entirely closed to them. The main problem with a multi-parent theory is that it’s very hard to reconcile with the doctrine of original sin, which the Catholic Church has declared under its character of infallibility is inherited by all men. I’m not saying it’s an irresolvable problem, but if you do buy into the multi-parent theory, I’d love to hear your thoughts on how that

The problem with the two-parent theory is that it requires brother-sister incest. Now, grannymh has a great point, and I never thought about it that way. If we can accept that these hypothetical first parents had preternatural gifts, incorruptibility, and so forth (and is there any reason why Catholics should not believe it, since we already do believe in the regular supernatural intervention of God in history?), then incest would bear exactly zero risk of causing birth defects for many generations (because it would take time for mutations to arise that cause recessive genetic defects which cause birth defects which make incest risky). So there’s not much concern on a scientific front.

The objection is more a theological one: how can God permit – even require – something which is intrinsically wrong? All our theology says that God cannot do that, and we are left with the unsettling implication that brother-sister incest is not intrinsically wrong. Is that compatible with Church teaching? Does the Church teach that brother-sister incest is a sin in the same way that murder or adultery is a sin (i.e. absolutely), or that it is a sin in the same way that missing Mass on Sunday or marrying an ordained priest is a sin (i.e. only by disobedience to legitimate authority)? If the former, then I don’t think we can accept the single-pair hypothesis.

It’s tricky.

And, larkin, I know you’re agnostic, so you don’t buy into a lot of the premises here (which are largely theological). If I were in your position, without recourse to revelation and doctrine, I think the only conclusion you could draw is “There is no clear answer.” Pure reason, observation, and the scientific method aren’t able to give us very much help on the question of when, how, and how many were given human souls in the first generation.
 
Wow. When I started my above post, there were only eight pages on this thread. The excitement here kind of exploded this evening, I guess.

CmCMcLaurin’s post is excellent, and I repeat much of what he said.
 
So, were there only two parents of all modern, sapient, lingual human beings? I don’t know. Despite its many successes, paleontology is not equipped to deal with the question, even in principle, because it’s not a question of biology or the fossil record…
But genetics is equipped to deal with this question.
 
I neither accept or reject the dating, as it is based on the current knowledge of our culture. What I reject is the assumption that ‘at least hundreds of millions of years before the presence of humans’ is absolute truth.
I did not say it was. But the evidence and work in several scientific fields continues to mount and corroborate each other on the relative dating of fossil specimens. Much much much fauna and flora predated the first humans on this planet. I accept this as very very likely true. I do not reject it because it is not absolutely true.
 
The objection is more a theological one: how can God permit – even require – something which is intrinsically wrong?
–snip–
It’s tricky.
Just to let you know, last night I started checking the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition…*

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
I did not say it was. But the evidence and work in several scientific fields continues to mount and corroborate each other on the relative dating of fossil specimens. Much much much fauna and flora predated the first humans on this planet. I accept this as very very likely true. I do not reject it because it is not absolutely true.
One of the more interesting tidbits concerning evidence is the effort to preserve the fossils from contaminants and/or recognize natural contaminants at the site or possible ones in experiments.

I see this as verifying that earth is a very complex system before and after Adam and Eve. To me, Adam is the watershed that differentiates the meaning of death. Before Adam, nothing was called to share in God’s life for eternity. Adam was the very first creature who, in his own nature, united the material and spiritual worlds. Therefore, death took on a new meaning.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17
 
I did not say it was. But the evidence and work in several scientific fields continues to mount and corroborate each other on the relative dating of fossil specimens. Much much much fauna and flora predated the first humans on this planet. I accept this as very very likely true. I do not reject it because it is not absolutely true.
Larkin, the consilient evidence – coming from astronomy, astrochemistry, planetary geology, oceanography, paleontology, cladistics, genetics, and a host of other scientific disciplines – is that life on planet Earth is very ancient. Scientists don’t accept it because they all form part of a large conspiracy; they accept it because since 1859 it has rung increasingly true and has been interdisciplinarily confirmed. As Steven J. Gould once said "In science, fact can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.” (“Evolution as Fact and Theory” in Hen’s Teeth and Horse’s Toes (New York: W. W. Norton, 1983), 255.)

StAnastasia
 
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