Was Death Present in the Garden of Eden, before the fall?

[StAnastasia]

Not much. Square mile at most. Maybe more like a good-sized city park.

No Larkin – Eden had to be hundreds of square miles to fit in all the regions from the tropics to the tundra, and the ecotones between them.

 

[StAnastasia]

Adam had hair and skin, but his hair and skin did not experience corruptibility. It only was after the fall, with the introduction of corruptibility to human nature, that man in both body and soul experienced death and the tendency towards non-existence.

Sorry, this is not true. There is evidence that both Neanderthals and Homo sapiens experienced deformity, diseased, and crippling injuries, and also that they cared for people so afflicted – early evidence of the evolution of altruism.

 

[StAnastasia]

Simply put, the fall was of cosmic dimension.

Did the “Fall” affect what goes on the far side of our galaxy, a hundred thousand light years away?

Before the fall, man did not need to eat. He did not need to till the soil for food, hunt, etc. God provided man with everything he needed.

Well, how do you explain that humans were hunting aqnd gathering for two hundred thousand years before “Adam” and “Eve” lived? How do you explain that agriculture also antedated “Adam” and “Eve”?

The animals did not prey on one another for their sustenance, but instead served man, who served God, who provided everything for both.

Sorry, not true. The fossil remains of some dinosaurs include the fossil remains of animals in their stomachs.

These creatures existed because God created them. They did not need food because they did not experience hunger or necessity as they were part of the incorruptible order and did not yet suffer from mortality and want introduced by Adam into the world.

Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.

 

[JM3]

Sorry, this is not true. There is evidence that both Neanderthals and Homo sapiens experienced deformity, diseased, and crippling injuries, and also that they cared for people so afflicted – early evidence of the evolution of altruism.

science20.com/gadfly/altruism_its_origin_its_evolution_its_discontents

‘Instead of collecting data then forming a hypothesis, the hypothesis was stated and the search for data then commenced.’

This has been a problem with science for too many years and why I put no faith in it.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

In any case, we know that death has been around since the beginning of life on earth, 3.5 billion years ago.

Welcome back. Perhaps you aren’t aware of the most recent information from NATURE:

** The energetics of genome complexity**
Nick Lane& William Martin
Nature Volume: 467
Date published: (21 October 2010)

All complex life is composed of eukaryotic (nucleated) cells. The eukaryotic cell arose from prokaryotes just once in four billion years, and otherwise prokaryotes show no tendency to evolve greater complexity. Why not? Prokaryotic genome size is constrained by bioenergetics. The endosymbiosis that gave rise to mitochondria restructured the distribution of DNA in relation to bioenergetic membranes, permitting a remarkable 200,000-fold expansion in the number of genes expressed. This vast leap in genomic capacity was strictly dependent on mitochondrial power, and prerequisite to eukaryote complexity: the key innovation en route to multicellular life.
nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7318/full/nature09486.html

More about the above located here: ucl.ac.uk/biosciences/news-events/biosciences-news/News77

Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.

May I please have a reference from a scientific paper that supports your your statement,
“Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.”

Thanks. Hope you had fun on New Year’s day.

 

[StAnastasia]

some assembly required
bag not meant as a toy
remember to recycle

Do not eat dessicant packet.
Objects in mirror may be stupider than they appear to be designed.
Cation: wake turbulence.

 

[StAnastasia]

This has been a problem with science for too many years and why I put no faith in it.

“It’s why you put no faith in science?” You shouldn’t – you should put faith in God!

 

[StAnastasia]

May I please have a reference from a scientific paper that supports your your statement, “Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.”

You are the one citing an ancient mythological text in support of your claim that there was no animal predation before “Adam” ate the apple. The burden is on you to prove that carnivorous animals were vegetarian before the “Fall” – particularly if you intend to maintain this claim within the scientific community.

StAnastasia

 

[LogisticsBranch]

StAnastasia;7413979:

In any case, we know that death has been around since the beginning of life on earth, 3.5 billion years ago.
LogisticsBranch;7421928:

Welcome back. Perhaps you aren’t aware of the most recent information from NATURE:

The energetics of genome complexity
Nick Lane& William Martin
Nature Volume: 467
Date published: (21 October 2010)

More about the above located here: ucl.ac.uk/biosciences/news-events/biosciences-news/News77

Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.

May I please have a reference from a scientific paper that supports your your statement,
“Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.”

Thanks. Hope you had fun on New Year’s day.

You are the one citing an ancient mythological text in support of your claim that there was no animal predation before “Adam” ate the apple. The burden is on you to prove that carnivorous animals were vegetarian before the “Fall” – particularly if you intend to maintain this claim within the scientific community.

StAnastasia

StAnastasia, I have been discussing with you complex life. Bye the way, this is my second post to this topic. Be mindful of the fact that you have falsely accused me by implying what you have now said in your most recent message to me. This message of yours, StAnastasia, was directed at me when you said,“You are the one citing an ancient mythological text in support of your claim that there was no animal predation before “Adam” ate the apple. The burden is on you to prove that carnivorous animals were vegetarian before the “Fall” – particularly if you intend to maintain this claim within the scientific community.” Your statement to me is a lie. I never once implied such or said anything of the sort.

Once again I politely ask you, StAnastasia, ‘"May I please have a reference from a scientific paper that supports your your statement, “Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.”’ I simply would like you to be the one to give me a scientific paper that supports your claim.

 

[StAnastasia]

Once again I politely ask you, StAnastasia, ‘"May I please have a reference from a scientific paper that supports your your statement, “Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.”’ I simply would like you to be the one to give me a scientific paper that supports your claim.

I’m working on a reference for the 3.5 billion year claim. For now, let me refer you to Andrew Parker’s book, In the blink of an Eye, page 264: “The first trilobite evolved at the beginning of the Cambrian Era [ca. 540 million years ago]. This was the first animal with eyes, but it was also both predator and prey.” (Perseus Publishing, 2003).

 

[StAnastasia]

I’m working on a reference for the 3.5 billion year claim. For now, let me refer you to Andrew Parker’s book, In the blink of an Eye, page 264: “The first trilobite evolved at the beginning of the Cambrian Era [ca. 540 million years ago]. This was the first animal with eyes, but it was also both predator and prey.” (Perseus Publishing, 2003).

We have the first eukaryotes about two billion years ago, which occurred when an archaean engulfed a bacterium, and instead of digesting it, established a mutualistic relationship. Predation surely predated that.

“The origin of the eukaryotic cell was a milestone in the evolution of life, since they include all complex cells and almost all multi-cellular organisms. The timing of this series of events is hard to determine; Knoll (2006) suggests they developed approximately 1.6–2.1 billion years ago. Some acritarchs are known from at least 1650 million years ago, and the possible alga Grypania has been found as far back as 2100 million years ago.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryote#Origin_and_evolution

See Knoll, Andrew H.; Javaux, E.J, Hewitt, D. and Cohen, P. (2006). “Eukaryotic organisms in Proterozoic oceans”. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London, Part B 361 (1470): 1023–38. doi:10.1098/rstb.2006.1843. PMID 16754612.

 

[Wowbagger]

May I pop in for a moment to make a quick general reminder?

If Scripture were to contradict Reality, it would not disprove Reality’s infallibility. It would disprove Scripture’s infallibility. Similarly, if the Magisterium contradicts reality, everything we believe in is false.

The whole scientific method (devised by Catholic Scholastics) and a vast body of clear evidence in every field, from biology to geology, clearly demonstrates that the physical death of beasts far antedates sapient human life on this planet. One might as well deny the Copernican model of the solar system, or the spherical nature of the Earth. Every male five-year-old can relate the evidence to you at considerable length. (We all had our dinosaur phase!)

JM3 believes that the putatively infallible authority of the Magisterium teaches infallibly that the physical death of beasts began only after the rise of sapient human life on this planet (and the catastrophic Fall that followed shortly thereafter). If he is correct, it would not mean that death is a recent innovation. It would mean that the Catholic Church teaches falsehood.

I am wary of any claim that so directly attacks my faith’s fundamental claim to the Truth. We would do well to examine every possible alternative interpretation of the passages JM3 cites. If his interpretation proves to be the only reasonable interpretation of the Church’s teaching, then I will do the honest thing and leave the Church, for She would have proven herself a liar and a cheat.

However, I’m pretty sure that in the end we’ll find that JM3’s interpretation is not the only possible legitimate interpretation of magisterial teaching. For myself, I do not see why he treats the death of beasts and the death of rational, sapient Men as identical events with identical Catechetical treatment. Seems to me that incorruptible Adam and Eve could have easily co-existed with a corruptible world of beasts and plants. I certainly don’t think the writers of Genesis (including the Holy Spirit) ever intended to imply that Man, with his glorious sense of taste, his wondrous digestive system, expert at grinding up dead plants and beasts, only eats as a result of the Fall!

 

[StAnastasia]

May I pop in for a moment to make a quick general reminder?..I am wary of any claim that so directly attacks my faith’s fundamental claim to the Truth. We would do well to examine every possible alternative interpretation of the passages JM3 cites. If his interpretation proves to be the only reasonable interpretation of the Church’s teaching, then I will do the honest thing and leave the Church, for She would have proven herself a liar and a cheat.!

Well articulated, Wowbagger. However, you will find a number of people on Catholic Answers who reject the “Copernican heresy.”

StAnastasia

 

[larkin31]

… Your statement to me is a lie. I never once implied such or said anything of the sort.

It was a mistake, not a “lie.” Madaglan made those statements. They tend to blend together in rapid fire and when basically making the same challenge: show that predation existed before humans.

Predation pre-existed humans by at least hundreds of millions of years. Honestly, this is a very silly discussion that we do not even debate in elementary school science (at my school, anyway). I mean, what do you think that fossilized serrated teeth and scimitar-like claws were for?

 

[larkin31]

Do not eat dessicant packet.
Objects in mirror may be stupider than they appear to be designed.
Cation: wake turbulence.

rinse, repeat

some animals were predated in the evolution of this species

check hull for non-native growth

 

[grannymh]

May I pop in for a moment to make a quick general reminder?

If Scripture were to contradict Reality, it would not disprove Reality’s infallibility. It would disprove Scripture’s infallibility. Similarly, if the Magisterium contradicts reality, everything we believe in is false.

What Magisterium teachings could you be referring to? Is there really some doctrine which specifically, in scientific terms, describes the life of animals in the pre-history world?

Some posts back, the Catechism was quoted – paragraphs 1006-1008 of the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. To understand these, one should read paragraph 1005 which is the introduction of the section headed “Dying in Christ Jesus” This whole section refers to human death if one will continue reading.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by St. Anastasia:
Did the “Fall” affect what goes on the far side of our galaxy, a hundred thousand light years away?

Creation was made for man, and man was to raise all creation in order to unite what is created with the uncreated (God). God intended the divinization of creation through man. When man fell, all creation experienced the death and decay man experienced. This includes all galaxies, even those now light years away.

Well, how do you explain that humans were hunting aqnd gathering for two hundred thousand years before “Adam” and “Eve” lived? How do you explain that agriculture also antedated “Adam” and “Eve”?

According to you, when did Adam and Eve live (if you consider them having existed at all)?

The Christian teaching is that Adam and Eve were the first human beings. They truly lived. Before the fall, Adam did not struggle for his food. Only after the fall did Adam need to toil in the fields for his food (Genesis 1:17-19).

Sorry, not true. The fossil remains of some dinosaurs include the fossil remains of animals in their stomachs.

A corollary of the theory of evolution is that the creation we see today (corruptible and death-filled) has had the same state of nature since the first moment of creation. This is directly opposed to the teachings of the grace-filled Fathers, who recognize a cosmic catastrophe after the creation of man that changes very created nature.

I am not a scientist, so I do not venture to make scientific claims that Adam and Eve lived x number of years before the dinosaurs, etc. Under the present paradigm of evolutionary biology, it very well may be that dinosaur fossils which have fossil remains of animals in their stomachs are assigned millions of years in age. I can’t say for certain since I have not looked into carbon dating and other dating methods specifically. Given the history of science in general, though, I do not believe the theory of evolution immune to paradigm shift.

Creatures have been eating each other for 3.5 billion years. It is part of the natural order.

This does seem to follow the prevalent scientific worldview of today.

 

[JM3]

May I pop in for a moment to make a quick general reminder?

If Scripture were to contradict Reality, it would not disprove Reality’s infallibility. It would disprove Scripture’s infallibility. Similarly, if the Magisterium contradicts reality, everything we believe in is false.

The whole scientific method (devised by Catholic Scholastics) and a vast body of clear evidence in every field, from biology to geology, clearly demonstrates that the physical death of beasts far antedates sapient human life on this planet. One might as well deny the Copernican model of the solar system, or the spherical nature of the Earth. Every male five-year-old can relate the evidence to you at considerable length. (We all had our dinosaur phase!)

JM3 believes that the putatively infallible authority of the Magisterium teaches infallibly that the physical death of beasts began only after the rise of sapient human life on this planet (and the catastrophic Fall that followed shortly thereafter). If he is correct, it would not mean that death is a recent innovation. It would mean that the Catholic Church teaches falsehood.

I am wary of any claim that so directly attacks my faith’s fundamental claim to the Truth. We would do well to examine every possible alternative interpretation of the passages JM3 cites. If his interpretation proves to be the only reasonable interpretation of the Church’s teaching, then I will do the honest thing and leave the Church, for She would have proven herself a liar and a cheat.

However, I’m pretty sure that in the end we’ll find that JM3’s interpretation is not the only possible legitimate interpretation of magisterial teaching. For myself, I do not see why he treats the death of beasts and the death of rational, sapient Men as identical events with identical Catechetical treatment. Seems to me that incorruptible Adam and Eve could have easily co-existed with a corruptible world of beasts and plants. I certainly don’t think the writers of Genesis (including the Holy Spirit) ever intended to imply that Man, with his glorious sense of taste, his wondrous digestive system, expert at grinding up dead plants and beasts, only eats as a result of the Fall!

Wisdom 1:13

 

[Madaglan]

For myself, I do not see why he treats the death of beasts and the death of rational, sapient Men as identical events with identical Catechetical treatment. Seems to me that incorruptible Adam and Eve could have easily co-existed with a corruptible world of beasts and plants. I certainly don’t think the writers of Genesis (including the Holy Spirit) ever intended to imply that Man, with his glorious sense of taste, his wondrous digestive system, expert at grinding up dead plants and beasts, only eats as a result of the Fall!

There was no sensual pleasure or pain in Adam before the fall, according to the Fathers. The food that sustained life was doing the will of God.

Creation does not stand apart from man. It was created *for *man, to offer up to God and become, with man through whom it is offered, more united with the divine nature. It was through mis-use of his free will that creation fell into corruption with man.

Of note, the offering of the Eucharist not only is an offering of Christ on the Cross, but is an offering of creation back to God to be divinized, already sanctified through the work of the God-man with whom it is united.

 

[StAnastasia]

Creation was made for man, and man was to raise all creation in order to unite what is created with the uncreated (God). God intended the divinization of creation through man. When man fell, all creation experienced the death and decay man experienced. This includes all galaxies, even those now light years away.

That is the claim of a largely illiterate, pre-scientific culture unaware of how vast the universe in fact is.

According to you, when did Adam and Eve live (if you consider them having existed at all)?

“Adam” and “Eve” represent all of humanity evolving out of our perhuman past, into the light of rationality, moral responsibility, and the knowledge of and love for God.

The Christian teaching is that Adam and Eve were the first human beings. They truly lived. Before the fall, Adam did not struggle for his food. Only after the fall did Adam need to toil in the fields for his food (Genesis 1:17-19).

Of course – we truly live!

A corollary of the theory of evolution is that the creation we see today (corruptible and death-filled) has had the same state of nature since the first moment of creation.

That’s essentially true, except that with humans we have the possibility of creation coming to be aware of God.

This is directly opposed to the teachings of the grace-filled Fathers, who recognize a cosmic catastrophe after the creation of man that changes very created nature.

The Fathers were not scientists.

I am not a scientist, so I do not venture to make scientific claims that Adam and Eve lived x number of years before the dinosaurs, etc. Under the present paradigm of evolutionary biology, it very well may be that dinosaur fossils which have fossil remains of animals in their stomachs are assigned millions of years in age. I can’t say for certain since I have not looked into carbon dating and other dating methods specifically. Given the history of science in general, though, I do not believe the theory of evolution immune to paradigm shift.

You are right to hold out for the provisional nature of all knowledge. There will no doubt be further changes in the theory of how life on earth developed. But the only thing that has happened in the 150 years since Charles Darwin first proposed his theory is that it has become stronger.