Was Henry VIII a Catholic or Protestant

[GKC]

Yes. The title of the thread is “Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant.” Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn’t had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.

Mostly agree, as to the last. He was always self-centered, though not necessarily in disagreeable ways. Fascinating train wreck.

GKC

 

[poustiniak]

lastly:
H8 made a martyr out of his best advisor.

St Thomas More pray for the people that don’t understand the state of England.

 

[poustiniak]

Lets turn this post into a question on the Holywood representation of “The Man for all Seasons”

 

[poustiniak]

I love the bit in the film where he says “To sell you soul for all of the world, but for Whales?”

 

[poustiniak]

pun intended.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I’ve started this thread to continue a discussion that was derailing this thread.

It was a period when England, France and the kingdoms that were to become Spain were constantly making alliances and then becoming enemies. At the time it suited Aragon and England to make an alliance and both were in favour of Henry and Catherine’s marriage. It required a dispensation. There is a strong case that this shouldn’t have been given. I don’t dispute Henry wanted rid of Catherine so he could marry someone else with whom he hoped to have a son. Aragon didn’t want Catherine or their kingdom shamed. Their current ally was France. Despite the fact there was a strong case that Henry and Catherine should never have been married the pope was persuaded by Aragon and its ally France not to declare the marriage was valid.

I would go with what I heard on the Tudors series, that Henry had always been
Catholic, but that he would not have anyone tell him what to do except when it
came to what God appeared to be saying. I know the Tudors series was in
part a kinda fictional thing, but it appeared to present a rather valid thought.

 

[GKC]

I would go with what I heard on the Tudors series, that Henry had always been
Catholic, but that he would not have anyone tell him what to do except when it
came to what God appeared to be saying. I know the Tudors series was in
part a kinda fictional thing, but it appeared to present a rather valid thought.

I have no use for the Tudor soap opera, but I agree.

GKC

 

[poustiniak]

The glory of God is that through H8, like through Nebuchadnezzar we are all connected by our fealty to a false lord. A mighty and powerful lord who got it completely wrong. For the life of us we still cling to the notion of things like nationality and parliament because we can’t believe that so many clever people could have all been so wrong.
God uses ignorance in a very peculiar way. He puts it all in one basket and says, you are all mad and I will forgive for this. God collectivizes the sins of the collective unconscious. That way he can make prophets that can blow away all of our illusions just like that.

 

[DaveBj]

[opinion]

1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.
2. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.
3. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn’t have sons wasn’t Cathy’s fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers’ being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn’t exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.

[/opinion]

 

[GKC]

[opinion]

1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.
2. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.
3. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn’t have sons wasn’t Cathy’s fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers’ being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn’t exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.

[/opinion]

Neither did his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy.

The Tudor genes, in the male line, were a little weak. Else Hank would not have been put in the position of marrying Catherine.

GKC

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending review by forum mod Eric Hilbert.

 

[Bergon]

1. Henry was a Catholic, but after his decree of nullity was refused, he wanted to become Pope, at least in England.

I wouldn’t say he set himself up as the Pope. I think if it had been a feasible option he’d have done what he would to retaliate against France, he’d have probably gone to war with the Pope. However, he had to settle for denying the Pope had any authority in his kingdom.

1. He was also a dirty old man. And a train-wreck, as others have pointed out.

Unfortunately, the latter era of his reign is often emphasised rather than the earlier part. He was, as you put it, a dirty old man. In his time that didn’t make him unique among monarchs, peers or courtiers.

1. I suspect that the real reason that Hank and Cathy couldn’t have sons wasn’t Cathy’s fault at all; I would lay the reason to his male swimmers’ being, shall we say, defective. The one surviving son that he did have (Edward VI) wasn’t exactly the picture of English virility, not even making it to his 16th birthday.

Biological fact: it wasn’t Catherine’s fault. The man determines the sex of the baby. I’m not so sure his spermatozoa were too unhealthy at the start. We need to rememmber that they didn’t have the level of health care we have. Disease and early death were common in those days; even if you were rich.

 

[rinnie]

Yes. The title of the thread is “Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant.” Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn’t had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.

I think the correct answer would be a fallen Catholic. I was told once a Catholic always a Catholic.

When people are baptised Catholic they are always considered Catholic.

 

[Della]

I think the correct answer would be a fallen Catholic. I was told once a Catholic always a Catholic.

When people are baptised Catholic they are always considered Catholic.

Yes, but they can apostate, become heretical or schismatic. He became, after breaking with Rome, one or both of the latter.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Yes. The title of the thread is “Was HVIII a Catholic or Protestant.” Well, I think the answer is he started out a Catholic but became a Protestant, even though he himself would have denied the definition.

An interesting side note to all this is the fact that before Henry had his fateful accident that nearly cost him his life he was quite agreeable and kindly. Afterwards, he became mean and capricious. If he hadn’t had that injury perhaps history would have been very different. We can only guess, but I truly believe it changed him into the monstrous tyrant of history.

Having the Bible but rejecting the religion that produced it is like taking the writings of the Dalai Lama and following his writings but rejecting him and the Tibetan Buddhism sounds silly doesn’t
it, why do it. If the writings are a refection of the religion but you reject the religion from which they came, you are left only with a reflection.

And another problem was also that when Henry had the accident Catherine of Aragon was expecting, and when she got told her husband (Henry) had a near fatal accident and it was touch and go whether he would live, she had a miscarriage which by the way was a boy, so if everyone had stayed “Stum” Henry would have had his son. Henry in the end was like the fallen Angel who said “I will not obey” and did his own thing and broke from Rome and did his own thing and made his Church the way he saw it (such arrogance) it. But the joke was his Mistress now his Wife had a girl, I think the Lord had the last laugh, and at the end of his six wives he never had a son to take the throne and the only one he had with his third wife, Jane Seymour, the child died not long after Henry died, he thrashed England and made up a new Religion for Lust, and in the end even the second wife produced a daughter (Elizabeth 1) the heretic Queen. That ended the Tudor Line.

When Henry’s eldest brother died - Arthur- Catherine of Aragon was going to go back to Spain
when the leech Henry took a liking to her, now it was perfectly Ok to marry her as Catherine and Henry were only engaged at that at a distance no planes in those days, they were perfectly within there rights to marry, I mean how many people break off there engagement and marry another, and why not. It was a marriage of convenience between two Countries Spain/England and they were engaged since they were babies, Henry did not have to marry his future sister in law, but he fancied her and since his brother had died before they “knew each other” they could marry.
It was Henry who should not have married his Mistress Anne Boleyn because he had been with her sister and she had a child for Henry but leech Henry married the mistress Anne Boleyn and really it was Queen Elizabeth that was born on the wrong side of the bed as the saying goes as he was not legally divorced from his wife proper. He was nothing more than an evil thug who had to get his own way in everything.

Conclusion.

No man is an island. If you break from Rome, don’t listen to her teachings, kill her priests, nuns, monks and anyone associated with the Roman Catholic Church, do more harm than good etc,
your not even a lapsed Catholic, your just not a Catholic as you only follow yourself and your evil ways. So in my mind Henry was no longer a Catholic, was a Catholic that is why the Pope gave him the title Defender of the Faith which should be handed back from the present Queen as she also does not agree with the teachings of the Original Church. Henry was like Luther, Calvin, and all the other guys who make up there own Religion, a Protestant, which means to protest, which Henry did, so yes he is a Protestant

Having the Bible but rejecting the religion that produced it is like taking the writings of the Dalai Lama and following his writings but rejecting him and the Tibetan Buddhism sounds silly doesn’t
it, why do it. If the writings are a refection of the religion but you reject the religion from which they came, you are left only with a reflection.

 

[GKC]

And another problem was also that when Henry had the accident Catherine of Aragon was expecting, and when she got told her husband (Henry) had a near fatal accident and it was touch and go whether he would live, she had a miscarriage which by the way was a boy, so if everyone had stayed “Stum” Henry would have had his son. Henry in the end was like the fallen Angel who said “I will not obey” and did his own thing and broke from Rome and did his own thing and made his Church the way he saw it (such arrogance) it. But the joke was his Mistress now his Wife had a girl, I think the Lord had the last laugh, and at the end of his six wives he never had a son to take the throne and the only one he had with his third wife, Jane Seymour, the child died not long after Henry died, he thrashed England and made up a new Religion for Lust, and in the end even the second wife produced a daughter (Elizabeth 1) the heretic Queen. That ended the Tudor Line.

When Henry’s eldest brother died - Arthur- Catherine of Aragon was going to go back to Spain
when the leech Henry took a liking to her, now it was perfectly Ok to marry her as Catherine and Henry were only engaged at that at a distance no planes in those days, they were perfectly within there rights to marry, I mean how many people break off there engagement and marry another, and why not. It was a marriage of convenience between two Countries Spain/England and they were engaged since they were babies, Henry did not have to marry his future sister in law, but he fancied her and since his brother had died before they “knew each other” they could marry.
It was Henry who should not have married his Mistress Anne Boleyn because he had been with her sister and she had a child for Henry but leech Henry married the mistress Anne Boleyn and really it was Queen Elizabeth that was born on the wrong side of the bed as the saying goes as he was not legally divorced from his wife proper. He was nothing more than an evil thug who had to get his own way in everything.

Occasionally I’ll add a correction. Prince Henry was not the originator of the deal matching him up with Catherine. That was done by his Father, Henry VII, who had first contemplated taking her to wife, himself. The two primary reasons related to Catherine’s dowry, and the allegiance Catherine brought, with the Spanish Monarchs. Prince Henry objected, at the time.

Again, I suggest reading some history. Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII is the absolute best place to start. (he said, not overly optimistically). Scarisbrick is RC, BTW.

And you used the word “divorce”. Oh, dear.

And you really don’t understand the concept of an impediment of the justice of public honesty.

Ah, well.

GKC

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Read the facts, not the fiction.

 

[MSSheBear]

I love the Tudors–as a subject. Henry VIII married Catherine right after his father died. He was 19 and she was 24. She was considered a beauty at the time. She had been briefly married to his brother who was 15 at the time. Henry VII got the dispensation for Henry VIII to marry Catherine. Catherine only had one surviving daughter, Mary, who wasn’t in good health.

At one point Henry VIII produced a tract defending the Church against Martin Luther and then later on sort of started his own church. In the interim Henry VIII tried and failed to get an annulment of his marriage to Catherine. Catherine died while Henry was “married” to Anne Boylen who later lost her head. Some people in England were expecting a return to the Church after Anne Boylen was executed. Henry stayed with his own church.

My conclusion is Henry started out a Catholic and then became a Protestant. He believed he was entitled to run his own church, his own way. He proclaimed his Protestant marriages invalid, in the case of Anne Boylen, Anne of Cleves, and Catherine Howard. He had Anne Boylen and Catherine Howard executed afterwards. His last wife Catherine Parr missed out on this.

 

[GKC]

Read the facts, not the fiction.

For over 15 years, I have. My library on the Tudor period, and immediately before and after (one of many areas in which I collect), runs to around 250 volumes. Occasionally, I cannot avoid reading fiction, as in your recent posts, but it doesn’t affect me.

Again, I suggest trying Scarisbrick’s bio, HENRY VIII. Remember, Prof. Scarisbrick is a RC. In fact, he’s one of the prime movers behind the movement to beatify Gilbert K. Chesterton.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I love the Tudors–as a subject. Henry VIII married Catherine right after his father died. He was 19 and she was 24. She was considered a beauty at the time. She had been briefly married to his brother who was 15 at the time. Henry VII got the dispensation for Henry VIII to marry Catherine. Catherine only had one surviving daughter, Mary, who wasn’t in good health.

At one point Henry VIII produced a tract defending the Church against Martin Luther and then later on sort of started his own church. In the interim Henry VIII tried and failed to get an annulment of his marriage to Catherine. Catherine died while Henry was “married” to Anne Boylen who later lost her head. Some people in England were expecting a return to the Church after Anne Boylen was executed. Henry stayed with his own church.

My conclusion is Henry started out a Catholic and then became a Protestant. He believed he was entitled to run his own church, his own way. He proclaimed his Protestant marriages invalid, in the case of Anne Boylen, Anne of Cleves, and Catherine Howard. He had Anne Boylen and Catherine Howard executed afterwards. His last wife Catherine Parr missed out on this.

I find the Tudor period of interest myself.

The story of the ASSERTIO SEPTEM SACRAMENTORUM is complicated. However much of it Henry wrote (not much), he was not the true author of the work.

OTOH, while not dealing in much detail, most of what you post here is accurate, historically.

GKC