Was hitler a catholic?

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Reservoir Dog

Why would you want to prolong the holocaust by not ending the war as quickly as possible?* I could pose this in the same insulting manner you used, but I’m not.** *

Excuse me. I really thought you were the one insulting the Jews. And if you look at your language a second time, it does seem smarmy at best. 😃

Try not top pose with a self righteous smug. 👍

The United States had every right to pick their own targets. All I said was that they could have accommodated the Jews. If you think that would have slowed down the war effort, the air Force agreed with you because they declined the request. On the other hand, some civilian casualties might have been prevented. There is no logic in my mind that puts war efforts before civilian casualties, and especially the types of atrocities that were being committed at Auschwitcz and Buchenwald. I feel the same way about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I agree with Pope Pius XII that those bombs were dropped with evil intent, since they were dropped to show the power of the bomb to indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of humans.

Why does it take five pages of debate to come to this conclusion?

Perhaps because since the 1960s there has been an organized campaign by Jews and atheists to suggest that Pius XII was Hitler’s pope? 🤷
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Reservoir Dog

Why would you want to prolong the holocaust by not ending the war as quickly as possible?* I could pose this in the same insulting manner you used, but I’m not.***

Excuse me. I really thought you were the one insulting the Jews. And if you look at your language a second time, it does seem smarmy at best. 😃

Try not top pose with a self righteous smug. 👍

The United States had every right to pick their own targets. All I said was that they could have accommodated the Jews. If you think that would have slowed down the war effort, the air Force agreed with you because they declined the request. On the other hand, some civilian casualties might have been prevented. There is no logic in my mind that puts war efforts before civilian casualties, and especially the types of atrocities that were being committed at Auschwitcz and Buchenwald. I feel the same way about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I agree with Pope Pius XII that those bombs were dropped with evil intent, since they were dropped to show the power of the bomb to indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of humans.

Why does it take five pages of debate to come to this conclusion?

Perhaps because since the 1960s there has been an organized campaign by Jews and atheists to suggest that Pius XII was Hitler’s pope? 🤷
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Jews and atheists, the baddies, eh?

Exterminations were ongoing until the last days of the war, delaying the end of the war meant more people killed on every front and in the camps themselves, that’s the stone cold facts, pal.

Bombing railroad tracks from 20,000 feet is no guarantee of success, no guarantee that the rails wouldn’t be repaired in days, no guarantee that Jews enroute wouldn’t be offloaded and shot anyway.

Anyone who can issue a blanket condemnation of the atomic bombings without acknowledging the air war against Japan doesn’t have an opinion worth reading.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Also, Hitler had come to identify himself as a messianic figure, and the pagan trappings of a religious cult (adoption of the swastika, for example, and the nightly torch-lit gatherings and vast assemblies of marchers) suited him just fine.
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You’re probably right 🙂 but It’s the messianic element that makes me think he wasn’t an atheist - in his warped mind he was a messiah sent by his bizarre god to found a new religion.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
chosen people

*How would you rectify the statement in red with the critical swing vote of the Zentrum party for the Hitler enabling act? *

This is a mighty complex question and involves not only plenty of arm twisting by the Nazis, but also the sense that Hitler’s dictatorship was now inevitable with the withdrawal of Hindeburg from active political life. Hitler made all kinds of promises that the churches would all be safe from persecution … every one of these promises he began to break as soon as Hindenburg was dead. The Enabling Acts therefore enabled nothing good and much that was bad, including the collapse of parliamentary government and the rule of law. They were realized soon afterward to be a colossal swindle so for as the Church was concerned. However, all of this bowing and scraping to Hitler by the Center Party (along with every other party) was long before the full enormity of what they had bowed and scraped to was realized.

The Catholic bishops, along with the Center Party, capitulated because they not only feared for the Church, but for their own lives. Yes, some of them were rank cowards for doing so, but entirely human. The Jews were getting out of Germany as fast as they could, since they also were resigned to the inevitable dictatorship of Hitler. Do I call them cowards? No. But they did not stay, organize, and fight. So I hardly think you can lay the holocaust at the feet of the bishops when all they were doing was to try and save the Church from the horrors that were already being planned for Jews and would be in full force by 1938.
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Sounds like an excuse. Everyone who voted for the *Enabling Acts knew that they gave hitler dictatorial power. Everyone who voted for the Enabling Acts *could have read Mein Kampt and known exactly the kind of monster hitler was. The Center Party collapsed afterwards, which at least spared it from subsequent enactments.
 
AntiTheist said:
The question is kind of a boring one. For me, it makes no difference what Hitler believed or didn’t believe.

I have no way of knowing what his actual spiritual beliefs might have been. All I have to go on is what he said. He claimed to have been a Catholic, and he claimed to be doing what he did in the name of his god. His soldier wore belt buckles that read “Gott Mit Uns” (“God With Us”).

Was he “really” a Catholic? Or was he “really” a closet atheist? Or was he really a pagan? Or a closet Satanist? Or a closet Zoroastrian?

It doesn’t matter. Hitler’s actions were motivated by his belief in a kind of crackpot racism.
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on cue
 
*You’re probably right but It’s the messianic element that makes me think he wasn’t an atheist - in his warped mind he was a messiah sent by his bizarre god to found a new religion. *

Which bizarre god was that? :confused:
 
Reservoir Dog

*Sounds like an excuse. Everyone who voted for the Enabling Acts knew that they gave hitler dictatorial power. Everyone who voted for the Enabling Acts could have read Mein Kampt and known exactly the kind of monster hitler was. The Center Party collapsed afterwards, which at least spared it from subsequent enactments. *

You’re speaking as if it was the Center Party that alone approved the Enabling Acts. All the other parties also approved it. Without the vote of all the other parties, the Acts could not have been approved. How is it that you find guilt only in the Center Party, which held out the longest until the handwriting on the wall showed where Germany was heading … toward dictatorship with the declining health and downfall of Hindenburg, the only person able to stop Hitler in his tracks?
 
*Originally Posted by AntiTheist

The question is kind of a boring one. For me, it makes no difference what Hitler believed or didn’t believe.

I have no way of knowing what his actual spiritual beliefs might have been. All I have to go on is what he said. He claimed to have been a Catholic, and he claimed to be doing what he did in the name of his god. His soldier wore belt buckles that read “Gott Mit Uns” (“God With Us”).

Was he “really” a Catholic? Or was he “really” a closet atheist? Or was he really a pagan? Or a closet Satanist? Or a closet Zoroastrian?

It doesn’t matter. Hitler’s actions were motivated by his belief in a kind of crackpot racism.*

I think that if you are inclined to regard Hitler as a truth teller, we are certainly not on the same page. He lied shamelessly to all.

I judge a man more by his actions than by his words. Hitler’s actions show him to be not only not a Christian, but entirely without any morals whatever … and a lunatic to boot.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
*Originally Posted by AntiTheist

The question is kind of a boring one. For me, it makes no difference what Hitler believed or didn’t believe.

I have no way of knowing what his actual spiritual beliefs might have been. All I have to go on is what he said. He claimed to have been a Catholic, and he claimed to be doing what he did in the name of his god. His soldier wore belt buckles that read “Gott Mit Uns” (“God With Us”).

Was he “really” a Catholic? Or was he “really” a closet atheist? Or was he really a pagan? Or a closet Satanist? Or a closet Zoroastrian?

It doesn’t matter. Hitler’s actions were motivated by his belief in a kind of crackpot racism.*

I think that if you are inclined to regard Hitler as a truth teller, we are certainly not on the same page. He lied shamelessly to all.

I judge a man more by his actions than by his words. Hitler’s actions show him to be not only not a Christian, but entirely without any morals whatever … and a lunatic to boot.
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The idea that Hitler was a Catholic is absurd.

Hitler instituted laws of racial purity concerning Jews

He made Jews wear pieces of yellow clothing marking them as Jews

He made them live in ghettos

He burned Jewish books

He promulgated laws that restricted or prevented Jewish employment and commerce and studies and confiscated Jewish property

No Christian would ever advocate or condone such acts
 
*I wonder if ramming your tongue into your cheek this far hurts. *

Golly, I hope there’s no such thing as cancer of the cheek. :eek:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Reservoir Dog

*Sounds like an excuse. Everyone who voted for the Enabling Acts knew that they gave hitler dictatorial power. Everyone who voted for the Enabling Acts could have read Mein Kampt and known exactly the kind of monster hitler was. The Center Party collapsed afterwards, which at least spared it from subsequent enactments. *

You’re speaking as if it was the Center Party that alone approved the Enabling Acts. All the other parties also approved it. Without the vote of all the other parties, the Acts could not have been approved. How is it that you find guilt only in the Center Party, which held out the longest until the handwriting on the wall showed where Germany was heading … toward dictatorship with the declining health and downfall of Hindenburg, the only person able to stop Hitler in his tracks?
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Its been pointed out that hitler was voted in by a coalition. I said the Centre Party was only partly responsible, but responsible it was.
 
His religion does not matter. What matters is what mental illnesses he had.
 
Reservoir Dog

I suppose you know that the Centre Party, along with all the other parties that opposed Hitler, perished by 1933. The Nazis alone remained triumphant … and they made a point of immediately dismantling the Catholic newspapers and magazines that had opposed them. Crucifixes were removed from the Catholic schools, and Catholic youth organizations were replaced with Hitler’s Youth organization. All priests were warned not to speak from the pulpit against Hitler or the Nazis, and those who dared to do so were immediately arrested and made to disappear. The promises made by Hitler to the Centre Party and the Vatican Concordat were immediately revoked.

Do you think Hitler was a Catholic? :confused:
 
Blue Shadow

*His religion does not matter. What matters is what mental illnesses he had. *

The illnesses certainly matter. But an illness can be exacerbated by a radically militant religion, as 9/11 proved, or by no religion at all, as the atheist megalomaniac Stalin proved in the purges of the 1930s.

Hitler’s rejection of both Judaism and Christianity is pretty well documented. Though he seems not to have had any moral compass whatever, he liked certain ancient pagan rituals that were incorporated into his politics and his public image. He especially liked the idea of himself as a knight in shining armor (and was depicted in this way on gigantic posters), a messiah come to save his people.

He was just loony enough to raise himself above the Christ he denied. Nietszche, one of Hitler’s heroes, also raved about himself as a Christ figure before they locked him up.

orange-papers.org/orange-rroot480.html

Scroll about halfway down.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Blue Shadow

*His religion does not matter. What matters is what mental illnesses he had. *

The illnesses certainly matter. But an illness can be exacerbated by a radically militant religion, as 9/11 proved, or by no religion at all, as the atheist megalomaniac Stalin proved in the purges of the 1930s.

Hitler’s rejection of both Judaism and Christianity is pretty well documented. Though he seems not to have had any moral compass whatever, he liked certain ancient pagan rituals that were incorporated into his politics and his public image. He especially liked the idea of himself as a knight in shining armor (and was depicted in this way on gigantic posters), a messiah come to save his people.

He was just loony enough to raise himself above the Christ he denied. Nietszche, one of Hitler’s heroes, also raved about himself as a Christ figure before they locked him up.

orange-papers.org/orange-rroot480.html

Scroll about halfway down.
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Some even think that just believing in a God is a mental illness, so I guess it doesn’t surprise me that many people turn wacko from religion.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Reservoir Dog

I suppose you know that the Centre Party, along with all the other parties that opposed Hitler, perished by 1933. The Nazis alone remained triumphant … and they made a point of immediately dismantling the Catholic newspapers and magazines that had opposed them. Crucifixes were removed from the Catholic schools, and Catholic youth organizations were replaced with Hitler’s Youth organization. All priests were warned not to speak from the pulpit against Hitler or the Nazis, and those who dared to do so were immediately arrested and made to disappear. The promises made by Hitler to the Centre Party and the Vatican Concordat were immediately revoked.

Do you think Hitler was a Catholic? :confused:
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I already pointed out that the Centre Party collapsed, after voting hitler in as chancellor and passing the first of the enabling acts. The party screwed itself. As I constantly maintain, all the more reason for the CC to stay out of politics.

hitler was no more of a catholic than franco or any murderous thug who uses religion as a pretext.
 
chosen_people said:
No Christian would ever advocate or condone such acts
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Well, regardless of what a true Christian – or what a true Scotsman – would do, we have no way of knowing what Hitler, in his private thoughts, considered himself to be, religiously-speaking.

And it’s irrelevant what he considered himself since we all agree he was nuts.
 
Hitler might have thought he was a catholic, but nothing he did was Christ like at all.

Hence why I think he had some sort of mental illness(es).
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Which bizarre god was that? :confused:
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I think he believed he was predestined to lead his so-called Aryan Race to a new Jerusalem as the savior of Germany. Even if it started as a cover story, the success of many of his military plans, being treated as a demigod, the pride of his people, etc., would all have gone to his head.

So even though he may have had no concern for religion other than as a tool to manipulate the masses, he saw himself as the chosen one with god for ever on his side.

This is all speculation though. The real issue is how the scum-bag and his cronies managed to manipulate a whole nation, even unto the nation of Bach and laden-hosen. After all, the politics of fear is still used widely today.
 
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