Was I off-based to say in committee meeting?

[catsrus]

Good for you! More of us need to speak up and more often.
I participate in a Small Christian Community Group consisting of 4 members (including myself) and our priest.
Of the other 3;
One thinks abortion is wrong but that it’s not his place to “judge” what others do.
One thinks there’s nothing at all wrong with inclusive language and makes a point of using it
One said last evening that re: The Da Vinci Code book, “so what if Jesus was married and fathered children, that certainly doesn’t effect my faith.” (this one just took a job in a Catholic school teaching theology!)
I find it interesting that none of the 3 ever express these opinions when Father is present.
I always try to argue their positions but they get angry and defensive.
Last evening was my last in this group.

 

[BillP]

JMJ Theresa:

…I said, “Let 'em go. They will be judged on a higher standard if they stay in the Church. And, we don’t want a bunch of lukewarm Catholics.”…

Why don’t you want “a bunch of lukewarm Catholics”? How can you catechize people you don’t interact with? If they leave the Church for some flavor of Protestantism or go off of religion entirely, how does that benefit them?

Didn’t St.Francis say; “Preach the Gospel at all times, use words if necessary”?

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

I hear ya, Bill. That is what the big dispute was about. I (and others) were arguing that we needed to provided authentic Catholic catechesis to our confirmation candidates and their parents and sponsors. Others said that if we demanded too much (actual learning), their parents esp. those in mixed marriages would leave the church. The thing is–people won’t leave if they are given the Truth–they will rejoice! The ones who leave are the ones are aren’t given the truth–just this and that and platitudes.

So, when I was saying let 'em leave, I was wrong. What I should have said, “if we want to keep them, we better show them the Truth.”

I was lukewarm in faith until I was twenty-four. The cause–lack of education.!! 24 years of being Catholic. Five sacraments. Five sacramental prep programs. 11 years of CCD. Sunday Mass attendance. zero catechesis. I mean zero. I didn’t know what mortal sin, true presence in the Eucharist, communion of saints, what a sacrament is, why confession is necessary, why only men are called to be priests… I could go on and on. I didn’t know that we had an obligation to go to Sunday Mass–my parents took us weekly–but I just thought they had the habit. AGGHHH!!!

My parents failed me. My catechists failed me. My Church failed me.

Praise God I stumbled unto the Catechism and started learning the faith. The more I learned and continue to learn about the faith, the more excited and happy I am to be Catholic.

This is what our kids deserve. Not some watered down version of Catholicism.

 

[ReginaNova]

JMJ Theresa:

I hear ya, Bill. That is what the big dispute was about. I (and others) were arguing that we needed to provided authentic Catholic catechesis to our confirmation candidates and their parents and sponsors. Others said that if we demanded too much (actual learning), their parents esp. those in mixed marriages would leave the church. The thing is–people won’t leave if they are given the Truth–they will rejoice! The ones who leave are the ones are aren’t given the truth–just this and that and platitudes.

So, when I was saying let 'em leave, I was wrong. What I should have said, “if we want to keep them, we better show them the Truth.”

I was lukewarm in faith until I was twenty-four. The cause–lack of education.!! 24 years of being Catholic. Five sacraments. Five sacramental prep programs. 11 years of CCD. Sunday Mass attendance. zero catechesis. I mean zero. I didn’t know what mortal sin, true presence in the Eucharist, communion of saints, what a sacrament is, why confession is necessary, why only men are called to be priests… I could go on and on. I didn’t know that we had an obligation to go to Sunday Mass–my parents took us weekly–but I just thought they had the habit. AGGHHH!!!

My parents failed me. My catechists failed me. My Church failed me.

Praise God I stumbled unto the Catechism and started learning the faith. The more I learned and continue to learn about the faith, the more excited and happy I am to be Catholic.

This is what our kids deserve. Not some watered down version of Catholicism.

Amen, Theresa!

Though the incident you describe confirms my worst fears about Catholic catechists–that they water down our faith for fear that the truth will frighten off people. I figured that is why so many Catholics know so little about our faith. I have sensed that DRE’s intentionally give “Catholic lite” to the RCIA candidates. I guess I understand why they would convince themselves that they should, but it makes for poorly catechized converts.

 

[JCPhoenix]

I HAVE to respond to this because this very thing has been on my mind!

I was Confirmed in 9th grade…and I subsequently lost my faith in college. Why? Because I DIDN’T KNOW MY FAITH DUE TO IDIOTS SUCH AS YOU DESCRIBED!!!

Teaching the faith RETAINS PEOPLE, it doesn’t chase them away!

I think if I had solid understanding of what we believe and why, I would never have left…or if I did, I would have had better resources, better foundation, and I would have returned far more quickly.

As it was, I was Confirmed while in a state of mortal sin, but since I bought into the idea that Confession was outmoded and God just cared whether we are “good people” or not, then it didn’t matter.

Now, as an adult, I have this amazing desire to teach, and some have suggested that I teach the Confirmation class. A co-worker and fellow parishioner has warned me about the lay person who runs the religious ed . for the schools, though…the classes are all about “Spirit of Vatican 2” “teambuilding” “community” “Loving thy neighbor”…etc…but DOES NOT TEACH THE SACRAMENTS!

People have become teachers and left because they know they have to be “obedient”. I have to ask to whom do we owe obedience, whether as students or teachers of a false ideology? Don’t we owe obedience to God?

Shouldn’t parents be sitting in on these classes to see what is really taught so that these new-age “A cloud is a sacrament” relics from the pot-induced 60’s can be ousted?

Are these things really coming out of my “mouth”?

10 years ago, never woulda thunk it, but now I’m mad that kids are being taught non-Catholicism in “Catholic” “religion classes”, and are being confirmed with NO IDEA as to what that really means.

They don’t leave because they are being pushed. They leave because they are not being taught. 'Nuff said.

NOW! How do we correct this?

To the OP…You said it better than I would have because I would have said something less charitible. I agree you could have better stated your thought, but in any case, it needed to be said. At least you stood up, and God is likely applauding you. I know I am.

 

[kaymart]

You spoke the Truth,:yup: if they were insulted, so be it. It’s a sad state when teenagers making their Confirmation do not even have basic knowlegde of their Faith.

 

[otm]

JMJ Theresa:

The youth minister’s position is that it is his sole responsibility to determine the form and content of the program within those guidelines without any oversight by our committee.
I think a faith formation committee in a parish should have say in the administering of a parish program. But, maybe I’m wrong.

When one committee member said that if we try to require learning doctrine, they would be bored, our associate pastor, who was sitting in on the meeting, cried, “I hope you are not saying that my Bride is boring!”

Isn’t that neat?

A couple of thoughts: It sounds as if your youth minister may have either an agenda, or a lack of knowledge and be afraid to teach.

If doctrine is boring, it is because of the way it is presented. It can be made interesting (ok, maybe not exciting), but if someone is bored, it is often because there are other issues at play, such as disbelief.

And as an aside, I would probably have approached differently; the reason people leave is not because they habve had to learn what the Church teaches, but because they have not learned what the Church teaches.

And with youth, as with adults, the learinging is only one part of the equation: the other is faith building. You can talk doctrine all day, but in the end, without faith, you only have a smart agnostic or aetheist.

Or, you can work at faith building all day, but without a clear doctrinal foundation, you have not much more than a committed social worker; soon to be picked up by a Protestant church that suddenly gets them excited about Jesus and what He taught - but according to their doctrinal guidelines.

Why is it that some of our Protestant brethern, and the Mormons, seem to have such active and enthusiastic youth groups and young adult groups?

 

[Cupofkindness]

JMJ Theresa:

Your comment was inspired. Thank you for having the courage to speak.

 

[ReginaNova]

otm:

Why is it that some of our Protestant brethern, and the Mormons, seem to have such active and enthusiastic youth groups and young adult groups?

Because it is easy to be Protestant and it is hard to be Catholic. Because the richness of the Catholic faith means there is a lot to grasp. Because our culture teaches us to question everything so we won’t believe unless we “agree” and we don’t readily accept authority. Because the Protestant youth groups stress the social aspects, community, fellowship, and each person’s “personal” relationship with Jesus. (I can’t speak to the Mormons.)

 

[spanky]

Teaching the faith RETAINS PEOPLE, it doesn’t chase them away!

AMEN JCPhoenix!

“teambuilding”

A perfect description of my confirmation training. “Let’s break away for some small group discusssion and do some ‘teambuilding’ exercises.” :banghead:

 

[Giannawannabe]

ReginaNova:

Amen, Theresa!

Though the incident you describe confirms my worst fears about Catholic catechists–that they water down our faith for fear that the truth will frighten off people. I figured that is why so many Catholics know so little about our faith. I have sensed that DRE’s intentionally give “Catholic lite” to the RCIA candidates. I guess I understand why they would convince themselves that they should, but it makes for poorly catechized converts.

I remember when I made my Confirmation—back in the 70’s. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. After I was confirmed, my grandfather came up to me and said “Congratulations—you’re now one of Christ’s soldiers”–I just stood there, staring at him blankly. I couldn’t figure out what the “big deal” was. It took me over 20 years to come to some type of understanding/comprehension about the Catholic Faith–all done ON MY OWN! What a shame that things have only gotten worse.

 

[Donna_P]

I’m a pretty blunt person. I probably would have phrased it the same way. That doesn’t make it the best way to phrase it. But I agree with YOU!!!

 

[she_he]

JMJ Theresa:

We were discussing the Confirmation program at faith formation committee last night. When a small group of us were insisting that there should be some basic catechism knowledge required (e.g. gifts of Holy Spirit), one person commented that we shouldn’t require too much or people would leave the Church to go to a Protestant Church. Here is where I might have gone wrong.

I said, “Let 'em go. They will be judged on a higher standard if they stay in the Church. And, we don’t want a bunch of lukewarm Catholics.”

Eyes rolled, heads shook in disgust, and there was momentary silence.

Was that a horrible thing to say?

well I think it was a tad harsh, None of us has the right to decide or even imply whom should come and go to church or what church.
I have seen some very strange things indeed though so dont be too hard on yourself, as I understand where that statement came from…
I just left a thread on here from a person asking if they could go to a wedding because it wasnt being held in a church, give me a break. so in essence some churches are teaching by various threads on here that you cannot go to certain places or events.
while others are teaching a more loose approach.
everyone gets something different out of the same teaching,thats individualism,just like ask three eye witnesses to a crime what they seen and all have different responses,
you may get out of the teachings hey if they aint die hard for everything then see ya,where the next guy thinks hey they are here keep them here and maybe they will see the light later,but they will never see that light if they are not here. 2 different idealisms on the same situation.I do not agree with everything at this point that the church is teaching, But i disagreed with a ton more 9 months ago, as i learn where its “coming from” and why I change my attitude or opinion about it…
not saying you are wrong, not saying you are right…
John

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

You are right, John. I don’t really want anyone to leave the Church. I was just perturbed with the attitude that if we teach doctine in any depth, people will leave. So, it is better to have less comprehensive programs to keep them.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I should have said that if we want to keep people in the Church, we** have ** to educate them better.

All I accomplished was to turn off people on my committee with my comment. Now, everything I say to them will have less credibility. Me and my stupid mouth

I will have to be more prayerful and more silent. The committee only meets every two months for an hour, so I was also frustrated that nothing was getting accomplished at the meeting.

Maybe I’m not cut out for committees. I was so excited to be able to have a say on a “program” level.

 

[kaymart]

JMJ Theresa:

You are right, John. I don’t really want anyone to leave the Church. I was just perturbed with the attitude that if we teach doctine in any depth, people will leave. So, it is better to have less comprehensive programs to keep them.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I should have said that if we want to keep people in the Church, we** have **to educate them better.

All I accomplished was to turn off people on my committee with my comment. Now, everything I say to them will have less credibility. Me and my stupid mouth

I will have to be more prayerful and more silent. The committee only meets every two months for an hour, so I was also frustrated that nothing was getting accomplished at the meeting.

Maybe I’m not cut out for committees. I was so excited to be able to have a say on a “program” level.

What do you have to be sorry for, saying the truth? You stood up to those people who don’t want to “hear it” My son-in-law graduated from a Catholic High School and knows practically nothing about his Faith. My children were in a very strict CCD program and of course home training and have a strong knowledge of their Faith. If we treat Our Faith and Knowlegde of it as no big deal, the children get this message and disreguard whatever they don’t want to hear. (such as Church’s stand on BC, Holy Days, Confession, and many moral issuses facing the Church today) I am proud of you and others like yourself who stand up and defend The Catholic Church.

 

[anna1978]

It wasn’t what you said, but how you said it…I consider myself a practising Catholic and I still would have rolled my eyes…If you had said the things you’ve subsequently come up with in this thread, you would probably have gotten a better reception and it might have sparked an inspired discussion-but sometimes we can be so blunt, we turn our audience right off…and I’m afraid, that’s what happened. Oh well, I’m sure by the next meeting they’ll have forgotten all about it and won’t hold it against you. Basically, you were right with your observation…and I often wonder why luke-warm or even stone-cold Catholics stay in the church…but it’s not for me to ask, really. I do think the confirmation-programme in certain parts of the world (Britain being one)is atrocious…and unfortunately it is very often just seen as a ‘party’, a ‘rite of passage’ with no deeper meaning…I do think there should be rules like ‘attending Mass every Sunday for 2 years’ and CCD for at least 2 years, because right now the youngsters are woofully prepared. I saw the confirmation text-book and work-book of the daughter of a friend of mine, and it seemed more like an art-and-craft course with a few essays around topics like ‘What is a family?’ and ‘Why is church important’…sigh…so, I do understand why you said what you did!

Anna x

 

[she_he]

JMJ Theresa:

You are right, John. I don’t really want anyone to leave the Church. I was just perturbed with the attitude that if we teach doctine in any depth, people will leave. So, it is better to have less comprehensive programs to keep them.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I should have said that if we want to keep people in the Church, we** have **to educate them better.

All I accomplished was to turn off people on my committee with my comment. Now, everything I say to them will have less credibility. Me and my stupid mouth

I will have to be more prayerful and more silent. The committee only meets every two months for an hour, so I was also frustrated that nothing was getting accomplished at the meeting.

Maybe I’m not cut out for committees. I was so excited to be able to have a say on a “program” level.

I wouldnt look at you as having less “credibility”
everyone says stuff that is taken out of context,
what you said I think if i had been there would have been out of frustration, it would not in my mind change your credibility at all.
and yes you do still need to be in them committees,
great ideas are formed from a combination of harsh and unharsh reactions,if everyone has the same exact attitudes about everything there would be no reason for committees now would there.

My normal useless 2 cents worth

                                  John

 

[RiverRock]

JMJ Theresa:

We were discussing the Confirmation program at faith formation committee last night. When a small group of us were insisting that there should be some basic catechism knowledge required (e.g. gifts of Holy Spirit), one person commented that we shouldn’t require too much or people would leave the Church to go to a Protestant Church. Here is where I might have gone wrong.

I said, “Let 'em go. They will be judged on a higher standard if they stay in the Church. And, we don’t want a bunch of lukewarm Catholics.”

Eyes rolled, heads shook in disgust, and there was momentary silence.

Was that a horrible thing to say?

Theresa, you know me, I would have said the exact same thing. People need to get a grip. More confusion in the Church is exactly what we DON’T need, even if it gets smaller. Keeping butts in the pews at the expense of what the Church really is, is doing nobody a favor. This is a CATHOLIC Church. We should be teaching CATHOLICISM. What’s going on in this world? To borrow a comment from a long-ago post, people go to an Italian restaurant and want to order Chinese! More politically correct watering down. You were absolutely right.

 

[she_he]

RiverRock:

Theresa, you know me, I would have said the exact same thing. People need to get a grip. More confusion in the Church is exactly what we DON’T need, even if it gets smaller. Keeping butts in the pews at the expense of what the Church really is, is doing nobody a favor. This is a CATHOLIC Church. We should be teaching CATHOLICISM. What’s going on in this world? To borrow a comment from a long-ago post, people go to an Italian restaurant and want to order Chinese! More politically correct watering down. You were absolutely right.

your right YOU should practice what you are preaching, its in my RCIA book that the church= the congregation, EVERYONE not just a select few,and not just the people whom decide the others should go. EVERYONE has the right to be there,cradle catholics,arm chair Catholics,catholics not following the teachings,revolting Catholics,
and even the Catholics whom seem to be able to talk to god and know exactly what he wants at every single minute of the day.

Yep that about covers everyone,no one person has more right to attend mass than another,

I understand some of your frustrations on this subject,However last I knew it was the heavenly Fathers whom decide who is “saved” and whom should be “Cast out”,
I also remember reading in my RCIA book something about not “judging others”. and looking at church laws i see nothing there for a “communion or a mass” police force.
but I could be over looking something…

Oh well I dont claim to know everything about Catholicism,BUT I AM still going to attend mass, like it or not and i may bring a lot of
my friends too so more that dont know nothing, and if they bring 2 friends and they bring 2 friends and so on and so on, maybe we could get you a job at the church Teaching all us nonconforming
Catholics how to conform to your way of thinking…
or we could just pay attention to the mass and the priests.
and be on the path

Still learning

John

 

[RiverRock]

Oh here we go…I’m judging again. Wow, that you got all of that out of my statement is amazing. I’ll try this again:

If it’s in the catechism, it’s Catholic. If it’s not, it’s not. Period. How’s that for clarity? It’s not MY way of thinking. It’s the Catholic Churches way, as set up by Jesus. That was my point, it’s not MY way of thinking; it’s not YOUR way of thinking. It’s the Churches way. Seems like you are trying to Burger King it; and have it your way.

I never once said I knew everything. I’m still on my faith journey, as we all are, until we die.

Theresa said that someone said that we shouldn’t require too much of anyone, because they will leave. I agreed with her.