Was/Is Mary the Ark?

[LionHeart777]

Here is the same distinction I touched on in St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies:

“1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, Ephesians 1:10 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess Philippians 2:10-11 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, Ephesians 6:12 and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.”
(newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm) (Emphasis mine)

See the 2 groups of people who end up saved here? Some stayed saved others no. So I guess in that sense OSAS is true for the first group; but only if it includes the reality that these people could be lost through misusing their own free will

From God’s view I would think it would be the same way; but that’s just my guess.

 

[LionHeart777]

My apologies for straying from the topic.

 

[Araninski]

The Ark of the Covenant existed before Mary, and still exists (So yes Mary is not the Ark of the Covenant), the Ark was built at the command of God, Moses followed every indication God commanded him. Now to understand the mystery of the Ark, we must use the Scriptures. Jesus revealed to the Apostles the secret of the hidden mystery so they could have full understanding of it.

Romans 16:25-26
“Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him.”

The mystery is written on the prophetic writings or called the Nevi’im in the Hebrew Bible.

So we know the Ark was hidden.

“The Ark of the Covenant resided in the Holy of Holies, the innermost room of the Tabernacle. Access was only permitted once per year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). Access was restricted to one person only, the high priest. He had to come into the Holy of Holies with the blood of a goat, on behalf of his own and the people of Israel’s sins. There was a cover on the Ark, known as the Mercy Seat, or Propitiation Cover. ]It was here that the blood of a goat was sprinkled by the high priest on the Day of Atonement, to appease God’s righteous anger (propitiate) for the sins of the people of Israel.”

2 Chronicles 35:3
"He said to the Levites, who instructed all Israel and who had been consecrated to the LORD: “Put the sacred ark in the temple that Solomon son of David king of Israel built. It is not to be carried about on your shoulders. Now serve the LORD your God and his people Israel.”

This is the last mention of the Ark, historically. The Ark of the Covenant was hidden to avoid it from being taken by Nebuchadnezzar. And it will be revealed again from its hiding place, when the time of the ends are near according to Daniel’s prophecies.

When Jesus was being crucified:
John 19:33-34
“But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.”

Now this part is important to understand. In 1 John 5:7 we find the following: “For there are three that testify:the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

When Jesus died, Matt 27:51-53 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "

Jesus blood and water went into the ground because the earths shook and the rocks split, and Jesus blood and water went into the Ark of the Covenant, which was below Jesus place of crucifixion, fulfilling the Scriptures. This is why today people hold that the Ark of the Covenant is in Mount Temple.

Well I hope you understood my explanation

Jesus fulfilled all the Scripture conditions in order for Him to be called the Messiah, He was sacrificed as it was supposed to and commanded by God, He is the Passover Lamb.

God bless.

 

[guanophore]

If someone is going to equate your doctrines about Mary with the teaching of the Trinity, then my comments are logical and appropriate, IMO.

It is never appropriate to try to confirm the doctrines of Christ from an unbeliever. It is also not appropriate to separate the Scriptures from the Sacred Tradition that produced them.

 I did not intend to imply that asking a non-believers' (name removed by moderator)ut should establish truth but that they could be asked as an impartial bystander to tell which doctrine is directly implied in the Bible and which most likely are read into the Bible and can't be reasoned directly from the Bible.

Who would do such an absurd thing, when we have the Word of God preserved infallibly in the church?

Seems an honest reply. I haven’t found them in Scriptures no matter how many verses are shown.

No. Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith. Catholics are not “bible christians”. We do not extrapolate our notion of Christianity from the Scriptures. We receive it from those to who God committed it, and through whom He has preserved it.

It is PART of the Tabernacle.  If it is missing the Tabernacle is not complete.  Take the humanity of Jesus from His and His life on earth or resurrection means little to nothing, IMO.

Ok. The ark was carried and travelled apart from it’s Tabernacle. It was also stolen from the Israelites. It exists apart from the Tabernacle.

Then we are like Mary because Jesus lives in true believers.  Paul said, **Ga 4:19  **"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,"

Indeed, all who are her sons and daughters keep His commandments. We can also rise to the level of blessing she had, but singularly, not doubly.

Maybe this is what Jesus said when He implied we all could be His mother: **Lu 8:21**  "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

He held her up as our role model to follow. She was singularly blessed because she bore the Son of God in her womb, and mothered Him. She was doubly blessed because she heard the Word of God, and obeyed it.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus blood and water went into the ground because the earths shook and the rocks split,

I dont’ think so, Araninski. I think the blood and water went into the ground because Jesus was stabbed in the side with a spear, and He was hanging on the cross.

and Jesus blood and water went into the Ark of the Covenant, which was below Jesus place of crucifixion, fulfilling the Scriptures. This is why today people hold that the Ark of the Covenant is in Mount Temple.

This is a very imagintive rendering. How did you come by it? I could not find it in the Scriptures anywhere…

Well I hope you understood my explanation

Not really, but I hope you will be able to elaborate.

Jesus fulfilled all the Scripture conditions in order for Him to be called the Messiah, He was sacrificed as it was supposed to and commanded by God, He is the Passover Lamb.

God bless.

Yes, but what does that have to do with Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant?

 

[Dokimas]

It is never appropriate to try to confirm the doctrines of Christ from an unbeliever. It is also not appropriate to separate the Scriptures from the Sacred Tradition that produced them.

You missed my point again. I won’t try to make it clearer. It never works.

Who would do such an absurd thing, when we have the Word of God preserved infallibly in the church?

You missed my point. Oh well.

No. Scripture was never intended to contain a full compendium of the faith. Catholics are not “bible christians”. We do not extrapolate our notion of Christianity from the Scriptures. We receive it from those to who God committed it, and through whom He has preserved it.

I’ll try to never accuse you of being a ‘Bible Christian’.

Ok. The ark was carried and travelled apart from it’s Tabernacle. It was also stolen from the Israelites. It exists apart from the Tabernacle.

This is like saying that the church and Jesus can be sepated. The true church can NOT be separated from Jesus. The Tabernacle is NOT complete without the Ark. Remember the Ark had the Mercy Seat on top. Quite important to remember. There is NO redemption without the Mercy Seat. Jesus is our Mercy Seat.

Indeed, all who are her sons and daughters keep His commandments. We can also rise to the level of blessing she had, but singularly, not doubly.

That’s not what I said nor is it what Jesus said. Jesus said His mother was those who did His will. Paul spoke of Jesus being formed in us and the image seems to be as Jesus was being formed in Mary’s womb.

 

[guanophore]

This is like saying that the church and Jesus can be sepated. The true church can NOT be separated from Jesus.

Good for you! You are so right. the church cannot be separated from Christ. This is why it sounds so absurd when our separated brethren do the “just me and Jesus - nobody else” routine. To be connected to the Head is to be connected to the Body.

 The Tabernacle is NOT complete without the Ark.

We agree on this point. This is why it was so distressing for the Israelites when it ws stolen.

Remember the Ark had the Mercy Seat on top. Quite important to remember. There is NO redemption without the Mercy Seat. Jesus is our Mercy Seat.

the Ark and the Tabernacle were shadows of what was to come.

That's not what I said nor is it what Jesus said.  Jesus said His mother was those who did His will.  Paul spoke of Jesus being formed in us and the image seems to be as Jesus was being formed in Mary's womb.

He said “blessed even more, rather” are those who hear the word of God, and keep it. Mary was blessed to bear Him, as the woman said “the paps that gave you suck”. She was even more blessed, rather, because she was obedient - “the handmaid of the Lord”.

Jesus is formed in us as we walk in grace. But no other human can have the blessing that was given to Mary, the privilege to be the Mother of God.

 

[Dokimas]

Good for you! You are so right. the church cannot be separated from Christ. This is why it sounds so absurd when our separated brethren do the “just me and Jesus - nobody else” routine. To be connected to the Head is to be connected to the Body.

Point me to a non-catholic Christian that says or thinks it’s ‘just me and Jesus - no body else’ and I’ll help you to try to convince them they need the Body of Christ (which is NOT the CC, it’s all true believers which include many catholics).

the Ark and the Tabernacle were shadows of what was to come.

There are two Tabernacles: the real thing in Heaven that God showed Moses and the one the Israelites made. One the real thing, the other the shadow of the real thing. All points only to Jesus.

He said “blessed even more, rather” are those who hear the word of God, and keep it. Mary was blessed to bear Him, as the woman said “the paps that gave you suck”. She was even more blessed, rather, because she was obedient - “the handmaid of the Lord”.

Mary was not the only handmaiden of the Lord:

**Lu 1:38 ** And Mary said, Behold the handmaid <1399> of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

**Lu 1:48 ** For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden <1399>: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

**Ac 2:18 **And on my servants and on my handmaidens <1399> I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[guanophore]

Point me to a non-catholic Christian that says or thinks it’s ‘just me and Jesus - no body else’ and I’ll help you to try to convince them they need the Body of Christ (which is NOT the CC, it’s all true believers which include many catholics).

I am gonna hold you to that, Doki! Next time I run into one, I will send them your way.

There are two Tabernacles: the real thing in Heaven that God showed Moses and the one the Israelites made. One the real thing, the other the shadow of the real thing. All points only to Jesus.

Yes, and Jesus is not separated fromMary, the Ark that bore Him into the world.

Mary was not the only handmaiden of the Lord:

**Lu 1:38 ** And Mary said, Behold the handmaid <1399> of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

**Lu 1:48 ** For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden <1399>: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

**Ac 2:18 **And on my servants and on my handmaidens <1399> I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

No, but she is the only handmaiden that had the singular privilege of being the Mother of God. She bore Him in her womb, she suckled Him at her breast. She cleaned His diapers.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by guanophore

I dont’ think so, Araninski. I think the blood and water went into the ground because Jesus was stabbed in the side with a spear, and He was hanging on the cross.

This is a very imagintive rendering. How did you come by it? I could not find it in the Scriptures anywhere…

Not really, but I hope you will be able to elaborate.

Yes, but what does that have to do with Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant?

I meant the blood and water went into (inside, because earth split, like a fissure on the ground).

Have you read “These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” In every passover the Jews practiced the Feasts of the Lord, waiting for the day that the Messiah would come, when he would make reality the things they practiced. Because every year the sacrificed a lamb, to clean their sins but every year they did the same because they always needed more cleansing of their sins, but with the coming of Jesus, He finally made it reality. Read Paul’s letter to the Hebrews.

There is no such thing “Ark of the New Covenant”.

God bless!

 

[Dokimas]

I am gonna hold you to that, Doki! Next time I run into one, I will send them your way.

Okay.

Yes, and Jesus is not separated fromMary, the Ark that bore Him into the world.

Jesus remained in Mary’s womb? Of course not. They became seperate. The law, the rod and the bowl of manna remained IN the Ark.

No, but she is the only handmaiden that had the singular privilege of being the Mother of God. She bore Him in her womb, she suckled Him at her breast. She cleaned His diapers.

Makes sense but it doesn’t make her better than any other woman.

 

[guanophore]

I meant the blood and water went into (inside, because earth split, like a fissure on the ground).

It makes a nice story. However, Scripture does not say there was any “fissure in the ground”, so I think this only exists in your imagination, or that of whoever taught it to you.

   Have you read "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." In every passover the Jews practiced the Feasts of the Lord, waiting for the day that the Messiah would come, when he would make reality the things they practiced. Because every year the sacrificed a lamb, to clean their sins but every year they did the same because they always needed more cleansing of their sins, but with the coming of Jesus, He finally made it reality. Read Paul's letter to the Hebrews.

Yes. In fact, this is why we say that the Ark of the Covenant is a shadow of what was to come.

  There is no such thing "Ark of the New Covenant".

God bless!

Your refusal to acknowledge it does not make it go away, Aran. The fact is that the Ark held the staff of Aaron, the Manna, and the tablets. Mary carried Christ in her womb, He is the fullfullment of all these images.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus remained in Mary’s womb? Of course not. They became seperate. The law, the rod and the bowl of manna remained IN the Ark.

Those who are in Christ are members of Him forever. She is part of His mystical Body, in heaven, where he has preserved her forever, along with all those who have finished the race.

Jesus carries in His person all that those items were meant to symbolize. He is the fullfillment. He is the staff of God. He is the manna that came from heaven. He is the Living Word.

Makes sense but it doesn’t make her better than any other woman.

She had a special calling that was different than that of any other woman who was ever made. He exalted her, who was lowly, and gave to her great things.

 

[Nicea325]

**Jesus remained in Mary’s womb? Of course not. They became seperate. The law, the rod and the bowl of manna remained IN the Ark. **

Okay,but Jesus (Manna,Rod and Law) is God Incarnated and obviously he was a fulfilment of the OT ark;hence the separation from the Ark.

 

[Cranmer2010]

Originally posted by Jlhargus on “If Mary was the mother of God” thread.

Any more comments or questions?

As for me, I don’t think so. Looking at Hebrews 9 a little closer, I don’t think it’s possible unless there’s more than 2 arks.

I would have to say that theologically speaking, it doesn’t really make any difference. Christ alone is who saves.

 

[guanophore]

I would have to say that theologically speaking, it doesn’t really make any difference. Christ alone is who saves.

Well, theologiclally speaking there is only one Christ who saves. It is a matter of which Christ. The doctrines of Mary were derived from Christology. He did not just pass through the woman’s womb, without taking flesh of her flesh. He is God, and He is the fulfillment of all the figures that were placed in the Ark.

And Jesus does not save “alone”. He saves individuals, but He joins them to Himself in the waters of baptism, and at that time, we are also baptized into the Church, and made members one of another.

 

[Cranmer2010]

Well, theologiclally speaking there is only one Christ who saves. It is a matter of which Christ. The doctrines of Mary were derived from Christology. He did not just pass through the woman’s womb, without taking flesh of her flesh. He is God, and He is the fulfillment of all the figures that were placed in the Ark.

And Jesus does not save “alone”. He saves individuals, but He joins them to Himself in the waters of baptism, and at that time, we are also baptized into the Church, and made members one of another.

I understand your point. What I was saying is that only Christ saves.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by guanophore

It makes a nice story. However, Scripture does not say there was any “fissure in the ground”, so I think this only exists in your imagination, or that of whoever taught it to you.

Yes. In fact, this is why we say that the Ark of the Covenant is a shadow of what was to come.

Your refusal to acknowledge it does not make it go away, Aran. The fact is that the Ark held the staff of Aaron, the Manna, and the tablets. Mary carried Christ in her womb, He is the fulfillment of all these images.

The earthquake made a crack in the ground, in many places, remember the tombs were opened. Though the bible doesn’t say there was a crack or a fissure, we know earthquakes make a lot of cracks always. And it says the rocks split.

"In Leviticus, the Levites were told to sprinkle the blood offering on the left side of the Mercy Seat for the covering of the sins.“When the blood and water poured out of Jesus, it ran down this crack opened up by the earthquake, through the earth, and landed on the right side of the Mercy Seat of the Ark.”

Here is a site with information, about the site and the crack. arkdiscovery.com/aoc-1.htm

Nowhere in the bible it says there is an Ark of the New Covenant. If it were true then why in 2 Maccabees 2 says the ark will be revealed from its hiding place, the same ark is going to be revealed. The same one Jeremiah hided.

2 Maccabees 2

These same records also tell us that Jeremiah, acting under divine guidance, commanded the Tent of the Lord’s Presence and the Covenant Box to follow him to the mountain where Moses had looked down on the land which God had promised our people. When Jeremiah got to the mountain, he found a huge cave and there he hid the Tent of the Lord’s Presence, the Covenant Box, and the altar of incense. Then he sealed up the entrance.

Some of Jeremiah’s friends tried to follow him and mark the way, but they could not find the cave. When Jeremiah learned what they had done, he reprimanded them, saying,
“No one must know about this place until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy.”

At that time he will reveal where these things are hidden, and the dazzling light of his presence will be seen in the cloud, as it was in the time of Moses and on the occasion when Solomon prayed that the Temple might be dedicated in holy splendor.

The Ark of the Covenant is the same and it will be revealed, soon.

God bless.

 

[guanophore]

The earthquake made a crack in the ground, in many places, remember the tombs were opened. Though the bible doesn't say there was a crack or a fissure, we know earthquakes make a lot of cracks always. And it says the rocks split.

Yes, but Jesus was not being crucified over the graves. He was on Golgotha. Yes, the rocks split, but that does not mean that the blood and water from his side flowed through the fissure into the Ark. I mean, really. That is quite a stretch.

"In Leviticus, the Levites were told to sprinkle the blood offering on the left side of the Mercy Seat for the covering of the sins."When the blood and water poured out of Jesus, it ran down this crack opened up by the earthquake, through the earth, and landed on the right side of the Mercy Seat of the Ark."

Like I said, it is a very imaginitive story.

Nowhere in the bible it says there is an Ark of the New Covenant

You can imagine there is a fissure, but I can’t imagine there is a New Covenant, written in His blood?

. If it were true then why in 2 Maccabees 2 says the ark will be revealed from its hiding place, the same ark is going to be revealed. The same one Jeremiah hided.

Ok.

2 Maccabees 2

The Ark of the Covenant is the same and it will be revealed, soon.

God bless.

Do you believe that this is Scripture?

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by guanophore

Yes, but Jesus was not being crucified over the graves. He was on Golgotha. Yes, the rocks split, but that does not mean that the blood and water from his side flowed through the fissure into the Ark. I mean, really. That is quite a stretch.

Like I said, it is a very imaginitive story.

You can imagine there is a fissure, but I can’t imagine there is a New Covenant, written in His blood?

Ok.

Do you believe that this is Scripture?

You just can’t get the idea that earthquakes make a lot of cracks on earth no just on one particular point but on many.

Don’t you see that if His blood wasn’t on the Ark of the Covenant, then He didn’t fulfill the Scriptures. He needed to “sprinkle” His blood on the Mercy Seat. He fulfilled everything.

Of course there is a new covenant but there isn’t a “Ark of the New Covenant”.

Your asking because it is an apocryphal book right? IMO there are a lot of books that have pieces of truth (but are not in the Bible, because they are not full truth), the same is for 2 Maccabees and the other apocryphal, and this books supports the idea that the Ark of the Covenant was indeed hidden.

1 John 5:6-8
“This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”

Jesus followed each step, until the end. So Jesus said it is done and let out His spirit and the soldier struck his spear and water and blood flowed…

There’s nothing more to be said. Jesus fulfilled everything He did everything, He demonstrated why everything that God commanded to Israel were a shadow of things to come, because every year they would just practice the Feasts of the Lord, because they knew one day the Messiah was going to come and bring things to light.

I Cor. 5:7-8
“For even Christ our PASSOVER is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast”
Acts 18:21
“I must by all means Keep this FEAST that cometh in Jerusalem”

God bless!