Was it wood or Marble? WBTS stuff or insanity? or both?

[Damascus]

If she believes the history channel tell her to watch the one on “Jesus Jerusalem”. It states that marble is extremely rare in the middle east. They talk about the temple and how it was described as being of marble, but they believe that it was actually painted to look glistening white, but was not actually marble because you would have to ship it and shipping large stone blocks would be ridiculous.

The manger may have been made of stone, it would certainly last longer and be more durable than wood, but that does not mean it had to be stone, and probably was not marble.

A lone Raven

Thanks. I guess I am just sad, that I was trying to equate the wood to His beggining and his horrifying …

I was struggling to get her to see how he …

nevermind. “emily letella” Gilda Radner.

I loved that woman. My mother and I would stay up late to see her and laugh so hard we cried.

I pray for the repose of her soul. What a woman!

 

[Damascus]

Does that in any way hurt??? Being a Giraffe?
And no woriies about the “frantic post” I was looking for clarification, that’s all

I must admit, I stole that line from exoflare. It stuck with me and I still crack up thinking about it.

 

[Mirdath]

They talk about the temple and how it was described as being of marble, but they believe that it was actually painted to look glistening white, but was not actually marble because you would have to ship it and shipping large stone blocks would be ridiculous.

The Egyptians ferried ginormous stone blocks down the Nile to build the pyramids

 

[Valke2]

Thanks Lion, and my apologies for my frantic post. I should have been more clear that she thinks he died on a wooden torture stake but born in a marble manger.

Sorry. I was sooo upest by this I did not get it across clearly.

She believes the History Channel;

??

At least its not the WBTS getting “New Light” on things this time.

Its the evil of TV.

Why would your mother believing that Jesus may have been born in a marble manger be upsetting?

 

[Valke2]

No. I cant. Its funny to you I know. But, you would know if marble was common then?

Tell me! PLEEZE!

do you know valke?

Marble was not common. Also, if it were marble, wouldn’t it have been around for centuries, even today? My understanding is that there is a cave/grotto where Jesus may have been born which was white stone (there’s a story about Mary breastfeeding Jesus there, spilling milk, and turning the walls white. I know it may not be the same exact cave, but if there’s one white cave there, there are probably others). Constantine did a lot of renovations there, mostly to make it more accessible for pilgrims. Maybe this is where the marble came in?

This website says the original manger was clay. atlastours.net/holyland/church_of_the_nativity.html

This website says the birth took place in a cave, used as a stable. patg.org/Sites/church_of_the_nativity.htm

Marble seems to have been available, at least in the 4th century, as the church was buile with marble columns, but it doesn’t look as if jesus was born in a marble manger. I’ll just point out that if there was “room at the inn”, the inn itself was not marble. So why would the manger be?.

 

[puzzleannie]

She just called like clockwork. This marble thing she admits she got off the History Channel.

Looks like she is almost apostate now.

One can only hope.

“history channel overrides WBTS” it seems.

I dont have cable so I dont know.

apologetics via HC, there’s a concept, did not mean to dig at you and your mom, God love her, this forum is not big enough for me to relate similar exchanges between me and various relatives. I just had to get back for the ageing female remark.

maybe if we can just get them hooked on HC, when they are totally confused, we can throw Karl Keating at them and they will be unable to resist. I could spend hours on my late FIL and the HC, which he regarded as the 5th gospel. one example: Bill Clinton was another King David and should be honored because they shared the same sins.

 

[jschwehm]

My good buddy Randy over at FreeMinds has these two articles on the cross. You might find some things in here that will help your Mom.

freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm

freeminds.org/doctrine/crossfacts.htm

Jeff S.

www.catholicxjw.com

 

[mrs_abbott]

She always sends my little one TONS of stuff on her birthday (day early or late) and Easter!!! and her Birthday!!! and even has been to my house for Thanksgiving!!! Come on. And I have to be really PC about it all and you guys know me here, it aint my gig.

If your mom is over the age of 50, her personality and demeanor (unfortunately) are what they are.
My mom can irritate me all to h*** and as much as that frustrates me, she is who she is.

 

[corvidae]

The Egyptians ferried ginormous stone blocks down the Nile to build the pyramids

yeah, but first, that was limestone, second, they had a giant water super highway. Israel would have been overland travel, I suppose the Jordan could have been used, but I doubt it was.

A lone Raven

 

[VWcrazy]

Since JWs “claim” they are sola scriptura, I would have asked her for Book, Chapter, and verse about the marble.

 

[Valke2]

Re Cross or no Cross:

It is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. So you have to look to tradition. “stauros” can mean either cross or stake.

There is a drawing dated around 200CD which shows a cross. It isn’t of jesus but rather a painting mocking christians who worshipped Jesus. Still, that they put his worshippors on the cross instead of a stake (in the picture), can be seen as evidence that the Romans of 200CE believed Jesus was killed on the cross.

However, we also have Josephus, 1st century romans had to travel 10 miles from Jerusalem to get timber for war machines. So that suggests that the cross was either a single beam, or perhaps uncut timber, such as two tree branches, that was of no other use.

There’s also evidence that the condemed were forced to carry the cross beam only toward the end of the 1st century, which means crucifixions certainly took place around that time in Jerusalem.

My money is on the cross. However, I’ve also read that the exact method of death has never been of paramount importance to the Church.
JW’s themselves used the Cross in their imagry up to the 1930s.

 

[Mommyof02green]

She believes the History Channel;

??

At least its not the WBTS getting “New Light” on things this time.

Its the evil of TV.

Oh, tv has it’s good point!

After all if she “believes” the history channel…then you just need an"truthful" History Channel doc on JW and a “truthful” History Channel doc on the Catholic Church

 

[Damascus]

Just peeking in for a sec, I want to truly thank all of you for helping me figure this out, and I really appreciate all the time everyone took to get me straight on this.

You guys are the best here!

All of you are so nice, and I really am happy to post with you all here at CAF.

I always learn something here.

 

[yessisan]

Hey Damascus… as I said I’d ask my DH and his people… none knew what I was talking about.

My DH’s first response was, “IT WAS WOOD, why would they use marble for animals?”…

So, I don’t know. To me it doesn’t seem as if the manger was made of marble. But if the History Channel says it was made of some rock, then I guess they’d know better, right??

 

[Zooey]

Wait- she did not say the Cross was marble-

she denys the cross!

It was wood torture stake! Not enough wood to make a cross!

The manger was Marble,

But why would animals be feeding out of marble?

http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

Thank you for your post. Are you saying that its possible the Jw’s are correct and that there was not enough wood for a cross but only a torture stake?

I am not getting this at all and my head is spinning.

I would like to know if the Cross is wrong and if it was marble the baby Jesus laid in,

I need to know as I am going insane now over this.

No, don’t do that; we would have to take time away from CAF to come & visit you in the loonybin!!

Is she suggesting that the cross was marble as well? Have any marble mangers or crosses been dug up in archeological sites (I’m sure they would have found some by now)… I find it hard to conceive… though as someone noted, the manger could have been made of some type of stone, but again highly unlikely in my mind (too labour intensive)… could you image having to be the guy trying to nail someone to a marble cross or trying to sculpt a manger

http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/2.gif

Yeah. And I am a Giraffe.

I knew that…http://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

 

[Valke2]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The crib or manger in which the Infant Saviour was laid after his birth is properly that place in the stable or khan where food for domestic animals is put, formed probably of the same material out of which the grotto itself is hewn…

St. Helena first converted the grotto into a chapel and adorned it with costly marble and other precious ornaments.

 

[Zooey]

Marble was not common. Also, if it were marble, wouldn’t it have been around for centuries, even today? My understanding is that there is a cave/grotto where Jesus may have been born which was white stone (there’s a story about Mary breastfeeding Jesus there, spilling milk, and turning the walls white. I know it may not be the same exact cave, but if there’s one white cave there, there are probably others). Constantine did a lot of renovations there, mostly to make it more accessible for pilgrims. Maybe this is where the marble came in?

This website says the original manger was clay. atlastours.net/holyland/church_of_the_nativity.html

This website says the birth took place in a cave, used as a stable. patg.org/Sites/church_of_the_nativity.htm

Marble seems to have been available, at least in the 4th century, as the church was buile with marble columns, but it doesn’t look as if jesus was born in a marble manger. I’ll just point out that if there was “room at the inn”, the inn itself was not marble. So why would the manger be?.

Re Cross or no Cross:

It is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. So you have to look to tradition. “stauros” can mean either cross or stake.

There is a drawing dated around 200CD which shows a cross. It isn’t of jesus but rather a painting mocking christians who worshipped Jesus. Still, that they put his worshippors on the cross instead of a stake (in the picture), can be seen as evidence that the Romans of 200CE believed Jesus was killed on the cross.

However, we also have Josephus, 1st century romans had to travel 10 miles from Jerusalem to get timber for war machines. So that suggests that the cross was either a single beam, or perhaps uncut timber, such as two tree branches, that was of no other use.

There’s also evidence that the condemed were forced to carry the cross beam only toward the end of the 1st century, which means crucifixions certainly took place around that time in Jerusalem.

My money is on the cross. However, I’ve also read that the exact method of death has never been of paramount importance to the Church.
JW’s themselves used the Cross in their imagry up to the 1930s.

See there?
Valke, please, never go away & leave us!! What would we do without you??
You actually do research, while the rest of us are busyhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/10.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/9.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/13.gif!!!

 

[Valke2]

See there?
Valke, please, never go away & leave us!! What would we do without you??
You actually do research, while the rest of us are busyhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/10.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/9.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/13.gif!!!

yeah. what’s wrong with me.

 

[didymus]

I just got off the phone with my Jw mom.

I told her is it not interesting Christ was placed in an ugly wooden manger at birth and died on wood (in her speak torture stake, in mine Cross)

She told me “we just dont know and at that time it could have been MARBLE”

???

Has anyone heard this WBTS thought before or is this my mom going insane?

She claims a cross would not have been possible due to “the shortage of wood at the time”?



Okay, now I never heard this Marble thing before. Mind you she has been a JW a LONG time. So is this WBTS stuff or is my Mom loosing her bleeping mind?

Funny you should mention marble. The other night I was watching a show on History Channel about Jerusalem in Jesus’s time and one of the mysteries was the fact that ancient writers like Josephus described the Temple as covered in gleaming white marble when there is no marble in the Holy land. The nearest marble is in Turkey.

So even if there was a “shortage of wood” it couldn’t be as bad as a total lack of marble.

FYI: according to the show, recent archaelogical digs show that the “marble” was probably plaster or stucco molded and polished to look like the real thing.

 

[yessisan]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The crib or manger in which the Infant Saviour was laid after his birth is properly that place in the stable or khan where food for domestic animals is put, formed probably of the same material out of which the grotto itself is hewn…

St. Helena first converted the grotto into a chapel and adorned it with costly marble and other precious ornaments.

Interesting stuff Valke!