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otjm
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If you don’t have free will, then you cannot sin, as sin is a choice. With no free will, you have no choice.
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otjm
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To say “foreknow” is to put God in time. He is not in time; all things are present to God at once. I am aware of the scripture passage; the writer is trying to speak and only has linear time with which to explain.
All things are present to God at once; there is no time.
As humans, all we seem to understand (with rare exceptions) is one event following another, because that is our experience.
All things are present to God at once; there is no time.
As humans, all we seem to understand (with rare exceptions) is one event following another, because that is our experience.
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steve-b
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AND
While God is outside of time, the point by the apostle, God doesn’t predestine first He knows then He predestines.
Time is an effect. God is the cause. Then he predestines what He knows
Cause and effect.
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MichaelP3
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I did not disagree at all. My personal opinion is just that God’s way overshadows anything we might think. And to ponder about it and even have the audacity to proclaim “what God thinks” is just somewhere I would not tread and would caution any Christian who does.
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otjm
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God does not know something first, and then predestine. That is a time-sequence; God is not in time and does not do one thing, then another.
But nice try. It is a mystery, and as almost our entire base of knowledge and understanding is time based, it results in our referencing God in time-sequence language - that is what we have.
The Apostles were trying to explain the unexplainable, and used time-sequence language. I am not saying they were wrong; I am saying that they did the best they could with what they had, and getting into hair splitting or attempting to sort out which comes first with God (nothing comes first; all is present to God outside of time) misses the point.
“Coulda” “woulda” “shoulda” are our language issues in trying to explain that which we do not experience. With no disrespect to anyone who asks questions which the OP asked (and a multitude have asked), we can attempt tp answer them; but we need to understand that all we can do is attempt. It is not just above our pay grade; it is not of this world.
But nice try. It is a mystery, and as almost our entire base of knowledge and understanding is time based, it results in our referencing God in time-sequence language - that is what we have.
The Apostles were trying to explain the unexplainable, and used time-sequence language. I am not saying they were wrong; I am saying that they did the best they could with what they had, and getting into hair splitting or attempting to sort out which comes first with God (nothing comes first; all is present to God outside of time) misses the point.
“Coulda” “woulda” “shoulda” are our language issues in trying to explain that which we do not experience. With no disrespect to anyone who asks questions which the OP asked (and a multitude have asked), we can attempt tp answer them; but we need to understand that all we can do is attempt. It is not just above our pay grade; it is not of this world.
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Latin
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Yes! Freedom and free will makes man responsible, but what is missing from 1734 is this:
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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says;
Life everlasting promised to us, but unaided we can do nothing to gain it.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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Jesus is very clear, our fates are not in us but our fates are in God and in His Universal Salvific Will.
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Vico, as you see above without God’s gifts of efficacious graces none us has free will even to go to Jesus to save us, it is NOT OUR DECISION, it is God’s decision.
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I just showed you Vico, a paragraph of the CCC taken out from the context of Catholic Soteriology means not much.
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I have a question for you Vico which is also in line with the thread title.
If God would willed, He could designed/ planned this world where there are no sins exists, in this case Jesus would not even needed to die on the cross for our salvation.
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In your opinion Vico, what was God’s reason to design/ plan this world where evil and sins are widespread and a lot of pains and tribulations?
Please don’t say free will because free will nothing to do with it. – With our unaided wills we can choose and we can do only acts of sins anyway.
Thank you in advance.
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God bless
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Vico
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God saves those that are saved, but a person is damned through their own choice, not Gods. That is the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church.
Catechism
You wrote: " With our unaided wills we can choose and we can do only acts of sins anyway."
That was explicitly condemned by the Church at the Council of Trent and also later by various Popes. A person can do good acts without the aid of grace, however they will not be salvic. The Church has condemned the ideas of Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and of Luther that mankind has no free will.
Council of Trent [Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma]:
Also related errors:
- In the year 1567, Pope Pius V condemned 79 propositions from the wtitings of Baius Denzinger 1001-1080
- In the year 1653, Pope Innocent X condemned five propositions of ]ansenius, taken from the latter’s work II Augustinus." Denzinger 1091-1096
- In the year 1713, Pope Clement XI in the Bull Unigenitus" condemned 101 propositions from Quesnel’s writings. Denzinger 1351-1451.
There are many condemnations that apply from those listed above. I will show just one condemned statement here:
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Latin
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I know those teachings what you have written above, Please Vico answer the following question.
I have a question for you Vico which is also in line with the thread title.
If God would willed, He could designed/ planned this world where there are no sins exists, in this case Jesus would not even needed to die on the cross for our salvation.
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In your opinion Vico, what was God’s reason to design/ plan this world where evil and sins are widespread and a lot of pains, newer ending wars and tribulations?
Please don’t say free will because free will nothing to do with it. – Because without God’s graces we CAN NOT even go to Jesus for our salvation.
Thank you in advance.
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God bless
I have a question for you Vico which is also in line with the thread title.
If God would willed, He could designed/ planned this world where there are no sins exists, in this case Jesus would not even needed to die on the cross for our salvation.
.
In your opinion Vico, what was God’s reason to design/ plan this world where evil and sins are widespread and a lot of pains, newer ending wars and tribulations?
Please don’t say free will because free will nothing to do with it. – Because without God’s graces we CAN NOT even go to Jesus for our salvation.
Thank you in advance.
.
God bless
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Vico
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God could not create an absolutely perfect world for a creation cannot be absolutely perfect as God. That is a logical impossibility. The Catechism teaching is:
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steve-b
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The apostle is taking speculation out of the equation,.
Read about predestination as the Church teaches.
The Church disqualifies in her teaching errors in thinking about predestination that have popped up over time with peoples speculations
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goout
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This right here.
When we try to grasp God using human concepts we can only fall short.
Scripture is written by human beings inspired by God. The writers are conveying saving truth through human words. Those words are not God in his essence, they reveal God.
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steve-b
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ANDotjm:
This right here.
When we try to grasp God using human concepts we can only fall short.
Scripture is written by human beings inspired by God. The writers are conveying saving truth through human words. Those words are not God in his essence, they reveal God.
we wouldn’t know scripture or it’s inspiration by God, if it wasn’t for the authority of the Catholic Church, and all the writers of the NT scriptures were in the Church they were writing to and for, as in the Catholic Church…
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fhansen
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In case it hasn’t been quoted:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
God doesn’t remove or override anyone’s free will. He uses our free choices towards His ends, knowing the beginning from the end. And He already knows the human heart, and the means to approach and deal with it-which He’s been doing since Eden, through the Advent of Jesus, and to this day. He uses it all to ultimately fulfill His plan of perfecting His creation.
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
God doesn’t remove or override anyone’s free will. He uses our free choices towards His ends, knowing the beginning from the end. And He already knows the human heart, and the means to approach and deal with it-which He’s been doing since Eden, through the Advent of Jesus, and to this day. He uses it all to ultimately fulfill His plan of perfecting His creation.
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Usagi
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God (specifically the second person of the Trinity) experienced human death (the separation of body and soul). God obviously did not cease to exist, but then we don’t believe dead humans do, either.
It is also correct (as you likely know) to say that God was born and had a human mother, even though obviously God did not come into existence at the Incarnation (though Jesus’ human body and soul did).
It is also correct (as you likely know) to say that God was born and had a human mother, even though obviously God did not come into existence at the Incarnation (though Jesus’ human body and soul did).
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steve-b
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True. How a person will respond to grace, and used their free will in life, till their death, is known by God in advance, before they are even born. Predestined for Freedom | Catholic Answers
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otjm
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I have read what the Church teaches about predestination. And I stand on what I have written. I have also read what the Church teaches about the Eucharist; and one can wax eloquent in philosophical terms; and ultimately it is a matter of faith, as ultimately we accept and believe what Christ said.
There is another thread about free will, and obviously some people cannot wrap their minds around it.
There is another thread about free will, and obviously some people cannot wrap their minds around it.
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steve-b
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Do you agree or disagree with the teaching of the Church?
Yes, it is all a matter of faith.
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in extension, one either agrees or disagrees with what the Church teaches. As Jesus said, "if one won’t listen even to the Church" as in listen to the only Church He builds on Peter and those in communion with Peter, then they are treated as outsiders to what Jesus established.
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lagerald24
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This may be helpful: https://www.catholicconvert.com/blo...holic-answers-live-jesus-and-the-crucifixion/
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goout
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Sin is not a creation of God or part of his “design”. Sin is the chosen defection of humanity in response to grace.
Because God is love,
And love can only exist in freedom,
And God creates us for that free response to his grace with love,
Human free will is integral to love
This is maybe the most basic truth that God reveals about himself and us. And if you get it wrong, your theology is off course.
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goout
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The price of sacrifice through death is our demand, not God’s.
Christ goes to the depths of all that is human to redeem and renew us. And because we choose death, that is the price.
It’s like if your daughter were homeless and stuck in prostitution, and cried out to you “come rescue me”.
If you are going to help her, you are going there, not somewhere halfway. Wherever she is, and wherever you have to go for that rescue, you are going with everything you have. That is the “price” of love.
How many fathers and mothers have lamented over a suffering child “I would take your place if I could help you”.
That is our heavenly Abba.
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