Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[Bishopite]

What the Church (Ratzinger - Vatican Biblical Commission, 1993) is saying is this:

Make of it what you will: it certainly recognises the influence of what is called a ‘theology’ on reading of the scriptures and interpretation of good works etc. (I am learning that the Vatican staff are wizards at verbal contortions, so that their propositions can be understood in a variety of ways.)

There are many theological propositions proposed to the Vatican but none can contradict the once for all divine revelation. The Vatican has to be very careful with its words otherwise some will take them out of context or deliberately make them sound as thought it is saying something entirely different; the media is very good at this as they just twisted Pope Benedict XVI; in a recent headline that read Vatican changes teaching on Limbo which is competely false, since there was NO dogmatic teaching. Anyway, we are getting way off of topic, so we may want to focus on that. I’m not sure where you are going here but I can keep posting on another subject.
And by the way, the reformers were wrong, concupscience isn’t a sin but the tendency toward sinning.

 

[nerfherder]

There are many theological propositions proposed to the Vatican but none can contradict the once for all divine revelation.

This is not persuasive. If the Pontifical Biblical Commission issues a statement on the interpretation of the bible by the church, with an introduction by JP II, then something is being said that is important. They apparently see things differently from you, and I suspect that their observations would take priority - you would admit that yourself, no?

The Vatican has to be very careful with its words otherwise some will take them out of context or deliberately make them sound as thought it is saying something entirely different

Exactly.

And by the way, the reformers were wrong, concupscience isn’t a sin but the tendency toward sinning.

I think the quote notes that - a tendency towards sin, but a bit stronger than CC before it.

Ever

 

[nerfherder]

There are many theological propositions proposed to the Vatican but none can contradict the once for all divine revelation.

I should make one more comment on your otherwise reasonable observations:

HIV is unfortunate but two wrongs don’t make a right.

This statement, which you made earlier, is profoundly sorrowful, and casts a shadow over the whole mission of Christ, in favour of the teaching of this unique Catholic Church.

My life, and that of countless thousands of others, has been spent in trying to stem the tide of an abominable plague such as we have not seen for centuries. We do not know when it will end - perhaps not for another century or more. It is probable that well over 100 million people have died from HIV in the past 30 years alone, and there are at least 100 million currently infected. And drugs will not cure them, but will keep the poor alive for a couple of years, the wealthy a few more. In South Africa alone, more than 1500 people are infected each day. And no, this is not a matter of immorality, where one makes a judgement about the behaviour of another.

To say that HIV is ‘unfortunate’ is a foul understatement, and reveals a level of unknowing that is profound. Please read and learn; please feel somewhat responsible for the suffering of the wretched of the earth who are those who are most affected by this pandemic.

Please forgive my passion, and that it has been directed at you. But enough is enough; there has been too much deadly righteousness already.

And when we could be saving lives, every day, for young and old, by using the tools that we have to combat HIV infection, it is morally wrong not to do so. That is my opinion. It is also the opinion of others within the Catholic church:

There is a growing consensus among Catholic moral theologians that the Church’s teaching finds room for this life-saving, ‘prophylactic’ use of condoms. The condom is used to protect against lethal infection. It is not being used to prevent conception. The protection of life takes priority and justifies the condom use.

the sacred principle of the priority of life still stands. Out of this principle flows not merely the lawfulness of using a condom when there is risk of contracting or transmitting the HIV virus, but even the obligation to do so. Responsible sexuality requires that those engaging in sexual activity take the necessary effective measures to prevent the transmission of HIV and other infections. In the words of a leading Catholic ethicist, “this prevention is an urgent moral duty and not a noncommittal advice or recommendation.”

This would be the principle governing every act of sexual intercourse where there is risk of HIV infection. It does not matter whether one is talking about fornication where neither party is married or about adultery where the intercourse is with somebody other than one’s lawful spouse. It does not make any difference whether one is talking about casual sex or commercial sex, about heterosexual or homosexual activity. The situation does not change according to the age of those involved; neither does it change according to whether it is a man or boy who initiates the sex or whether it is a girl or woman. Even in an unlawful union, the protection of life is the over-arching principle, and hence arises the obligation to protect oneself or one’s partner against life-threatening HIV infection.

This proposition was published recently by my closest colleague in the battle against HIV, an eminent Jesuit (78 years old) based in Lusaka, who is a leading activist on the challenge of HIV to education systems. The Vatican is aware of his views, and those of many others within the Church.

Please read it and think.

Ever

 

[mikeledes]

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

John 8:51 (NASB)

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

1 John 2:17 (NASB)

17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Revelation 2:26

**26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds **until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

2 Peter 1:5-11

5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true (X)knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11FOR IN THIS WAY the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

And yet these verses still stand. Paul may have been more detailed in his teachings on salvation, but he did not override, change, or invalidate the statements Jesus made on salvation. The above verses from some of his epistles prove that. I would like to add one more verse:

Revelation 2:10

…Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life

God Bless,
Michael

These verses still satnd.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

This is not

persuasive. If the Pontifical Biblical Commission issues a statement on the interpretation of the bible by the church, with an introduction by JP II, then something is being said that is important. They apparently see things differently from you, and I suspect that their observations would take priority - you would admit that yourself, no?

Well, it may not be pursuasive to you but, like it or not the reality is that the Catholic church IS the church Jesus founded with His authority behind it, see Luke 10:16.

 

[Bishopite]

I should make one more comment on your otherwise reasonable observations:

This statement, which you made earlier, is profoundly sorrowful, and casts a shadow over the whole mission of Christ, in favour of the teaching of this unique Catholic Church.

I know first hand about HIV, my brother is HIV positive and to encourage condom use is immoral, let alone a false sense of security being condoms only stop something like 3 microns in size of diseases, HIV is 1 micron in size so condoms don’t exactly do what they are made out to do.

 

[nerfherder]

Well, it may not be pursuasive to you but, like it or not the reality is that the Catholic church IS the church Jesus founded with His authority behind it, see Luke 10:16.

But surely that is not the point here? We are talking about theology, and authority, no? And if the Pope (two in fact in this case) represents Jesus’ authority, then where is the problem?

 

[nerfherder]

I know first hand about HIV, my brother is HIV positive and to encourage condom use is immoral, let alone a false sense of security being condoms only stop something like 3 microns in size of diseases, HIV is 1 micron in size so condoms don’t exactly do what they are made out to do.

I am truly sorry about your brother.

Your stats on condom effectiveness are incorrect: they protect when they are used. And even if they don’t protect 100 per cent of the time, it is worth using them for the 99.9 per cent of the time that they do, no?

I hope your brother is not HIV positive because he believed that condom use is immoral: that would be utterly tragic, and mistaken. I assume he is on drugs however, and will live a normal life, something that is not possible for the global poor.

 

[Bishopite]

I am truly sorry about your brother.

Your stats on condom effectiveness are incorrect: they protect when they are used. And even if they don’t protect 100 per cent of the time, it is worth using them for the 99.9 per cent of the time that they do, no?

 

[nerfherder]

Bishopite:

Actually not I’m not incorrect. I’ve heard this many times and they fail many times, tearing and holes happen which don’t prevent HIV to spread. Here is evidence with references to studies that show condoms do not stop the HIV virus…

I note that all your references are from Catholic/vatican sources, which would hardly make them neutral or objective. I thought you might be interested in the United Nations AIDS programme advice:

How effective are condoms in preventing HIV transmission?
An overwhelming body of evidence demonstrates that condoms are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV. Correct and consistent condom use should give you a high degree of confidence in your ability to prevent HIV transmission.

The effectiveness of condoms
At least four different types of evidence demonstrate the effectiveness of condoms in preventing HIV transmission. Laboratory studies have shown that the virus cannot pass through latex or polyurethane. There is also a theoretical basis for effectiveness: condoms prevent exposure to semen or vaginal fluids that may carry the virus. Epidemiological studies, which compare infection rates among condom users and non-users, have found that condoms offer significant protection against HIV infection. Finally, in many countries that have significantly reduced HIV infection rates (such as Brazil, Thailand and the USA), reduced rates of transmission have been strongly associated with increased condom use.
Few prevention methods are 100% effective. Condoms do occasionally slip or break, although fortunately this rarely happens. Condoms that are outdated, poorly manufactured, or inappropriately stored are especially susceptible to breakage. Oil-based products (such as hand lotion or petroleum jelly) can also damage male latex condoms, so only water-based lubricants should be used during sexual intercourse with a male condom.

In general, condoms are most likely to fail when they are not used as directed. Opening a condom packet with your teeth, a knife or scissors, for example, can inadvertently cause the condom to tear. It is important to use condoms from the beginning of a sexual act, rather than just before ejaculation, to prevent exposure to potentially infectious pre-ejaculate or vaginal fluids. Studies suggest that the frequency of condom failure declines as individuals become more accustomed to using condoms. That is one reason why effective HIV prevention includes both accurate information on condoms and measures to increase individual skill in using condoms correctly. As employees of the UN system, we are entitled to a facilitated demonstration of the use of both male and female condoms.

In reality, condoms are extremely effective in preventing HIV transmission when they are used. Because sexual intercourse is often unplanned, it is a good idea to always carry a condom in case you need one. If you have a steady partner, you should also discuss how you as a couple intend to reduce the risk of HIV transmission.

Ideally, a couple’s decision to use a condom results from a process of negotiation. The couple discusses the benefits of using a condom, addresses any concerns or resistance, and agrees on a mutually satisfactory approach. Sometimes, though, one member of the couple may lack the power to negotiate condom use. Many women, for example, report having difficulty asking their husband or partner to use a condom.

unworkplace.unaids.org/UNAIDS/basics/condoms/effectiveness-of-condoms.shtml

Love from Carol

 

[bones_IV]

Take a look at what James says:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

 

[Bishopite]

nerfherder; I note that all your references are from Catholic/vatican sources, which would hardly make them neutral or objective. I thought you might be interested in the United Nations AIDS programme advice:

Truth is objective, which the Catholic church is, and truth about contraception (literally means against life) is never neutral. Do you expect the “world” to feed you neutrality?? The world/the media follows the ways of the devil, because they are without Christ and you expect them to be neutral or objective?
You are heading down a dangerous road as a Catholic by accepting contraception, when the church explicitly states it is a grave sin. This is grave matter and your soul is more important than anything in this world. The “cure” is abstanance. The argument you use is akin to us giving needles to drug addicts because they are going to spread bad needles to others. Or perhaps give codoms to kids since they need to have sex or are going to do it anyway and give other kids STD’s.
The Catholic church IS Christ’s church and has the authority to “bind and loose” what is bound and loosed in heaven and on contraception there is no room for debate, it is always wrong just as abortion is always grave matter.

How effective are condoms in preventing HIV transmission?
An overwhelming body of evidence demonstrates that condoms are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV. Correct and consistent condom use should give you a high degree of confidence in your ability to prevent HIV transmission.

Well, then using herion is a great way to loose weight so should people use herion to loose weight even though the end doesn’t really justify the “means?”

[
](http://unworkplace.unaids.org/UNAIDS/basics/condoms/effectiveness-of-condoms.shtml)

unworkplace.unaids.org/UNAIDS/basics/condoms/effectiveness-of-condoms.shtml[

Love from Carol](http://unworkplace.unaids.org/UNAIDS/basics/condoms/effectiveness-of-condoms.shtml)

http://unworkplace.unaids.org/UNAIDS/basics/condoms/effectiveness-of-condoms.shtml

Carol,
Your citation is from the United Nations website. Do you know how anti-Christian they are? They support abortion on demand, homosexuality and they are “objective?” You are being deceived and I mean that not as a rude comment but as you brother in Christ and is love. Please trust the Catholic church who IS the guardian of truth 1 Tim 3:15. God’s ways are not our ways.