Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

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dcdurel

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Since some protestants condemn the idea that we have to obey God to enter heaven, or that we have to intend to obey God if we repent just before we die, then is Jesus a heretic?
In other words, since the teaching of Jesus that we must obey Him to enter heaven is condemned as salvation by works, then does that make Jesus a heretic in their religion.

Jesus said, “if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments”

Notice that Jesus gives us a choice, in order to enter heaven we must keep the commandments.

And again.
Luke 10-27-28
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-25383b")]" 28"You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. **“Do this and you will live.” **

Again, to live eternally we must keep the commandments.
Of course the Church also teaches that it is by grace we have received through faith, at baptism, that we even have a right to heaven. But, nevertheless, Jesus makes it clear, as does the Church, that we also must cooperate with this grace to enter heaven.

**Thus, is Jesus a heretic in their religion because He doesn’t agree with Martin Luther?

In fact is St. Paul heretical in their religion because he says we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?
**
Or when these Protestants find verses that seem to support “faith alone”, by Jesus and St. Paul does that mean that Jesus and St. Paul are only heretical part time?
**
In their religion, do Jesus and St. Paul teach a false Gospel part of the time since they don’t always agree with Luther or Calvin?**

How do they rationalize these verses?

Just curious?
 
He was not referring to gaining salvation, rather He was referring to obtaining treasure in heaven and in other instances abundant ‘life’ on earth.

For instance, in Mark 10, Yahshua equated obedience to obtaining ‘treasure in heaven’… later in this same verse, Yahshua states that it is still possible for all men to be saved regardless of their obedience… this is preview of the coming grace of YAH through faith in the death and resurrection of HIS son for the redemption of our sin…

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
 
What exactly is treasure in heaven? Does it make heaven “better”? Is “basic” heaven lacking, that it can be improved upon?

Anyway, I have a simple question in response to your answer. Can you enter heaven (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) without obeying God’s commandments? Choose one:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.
 
dcdurel said:
Since some protestants condemn the idea that we have to obey God to enter heaven, or that we have to intend to obey God if we repent just before we die, then is Jesus a heretic?
In other words, since the teaching of Jesus that we must obey Him to enter heaven is condemned as salvation by works, then does that make Jesus a heretic in their religion.

Jesus said, “if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments”

Notice that Jesus gives us a choice, in order to enter heaven we must keep the commandments.
Click to expand...
Actually, here’s the choice He gives in respect to ETERNAL life:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And again:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Looks to me like Jesus taught eternal life based on belief in Him and Him alone. I don’t see a “cooperative” salvation gospel coming from Jesus, nor His Apostles: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” The choice is either believe or don’t believe. They both have their eternal consequences. As does “work” vs. “does not work.”:Rom. 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,** his faith** is credited as righteousness,"Doesn’t look to me like a salvation based on “cooperation,” but through personal belief in Christ alone. So either Christ and His Apostles got it wrong or Rome did. I’ll stick with the original sources.
 
HalleluYAH said:
He was not referring to gaining salvation, rather He was referring to obtaining treasure in heaven and in other instances abundant ‘life’ on earth.

For instance, in Mark 10, Yahshua equated obedience to obtaining ‘treasure in heaven’… later in this same verse, Yahshua states that it is still possible for all men to be saved regardless of their obedience… this is preview of the coming grace of YAH through faith in the death and resurrection of HIS son for the redemption of our sin…

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Click to expand...
You are forgetting the young man’s initial question to Jesus:

"What must I do to obtain eternal life?"

The young man is clearly asking about salvation here. Jesus answer to this direct question is:

"if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments"

and

**" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” **

So that’s it. That’s what the man needs to do to obtain salvation. As the scene plays out, the man reveals that he has done all these things (which, according to Jesus, means he at least has salvation), but is looking for something deeper:

**And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.**

“Treasure in heaven”-- not heaven by itself, but by becoming Jesus’ faithful disciple and imitating him in all things (including taking up our Cross) we gain more glory or more honor or more whatever in heaven, in addition to salvation which, we see by the first part of this story, the young man is already able to possess by keeping the commandments.

Read the entire story in it’s complete context and it’s amazing what you’ll find! 👍
 
VociMike said:
What exactly is treasure in heaven? Does it make heaven “better”? Is “basic” heaven lacking, that it can be improved upon?

Anyway, I have a simple question in response to your answer. Can you enter heaven (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) without obeying God’s commandments? Choose one:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.
Click to expand...
In the context of Rome’s “gospel” of “salvation by cooperation,” the real question is: “Can you enter heaven by obeying commandments?”
 
apophasis said:
As does “work” vs. “does not work.”:Rom. 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,** his faith** is credited as righteousness,"Doesn’t look to me like a salvation based on “cooperation,” but through personal belief in Christ alone. So either Christ and His Apostles got it wrong or Rome did. I’ll stick with the original sources.
Click to expand...
Romans 4:4 is a notorius proof-text for “faith alone” adherents and is one that is used with complete disregard for it’s original context. This verse comes from a chapter in Romans where Paul is discussing the futility of keeping the Jewish ceremonial and ritual Law for being justified. Go back a couple of verses and the example is Abraham, who Paul says was justified before God before the Jewish Law was even given. So this whole chapter has almost nothing to do with the kind of works we are discussing – what one would call “good deeds” such are discussed in James 2.

Also, what do you do with verses such as:

(See below)
 
apophasis said:
In the context of Rome’s “gospel” of “salvation by cooperation,” the real question is: “Can you enter heaven by obeying commandments?”
Click to expand...
Why not just answer my question? Any time I ask my simple question I never get a straight answer, only hemming and hawing and evasion.

But I will lead by example, and answer my own question directly. For myself, I cannot enter heaven without obedience to the commandments, however imperfect.

Your turn. 🙂
 
James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

(more)
 
James 1:22-25 - it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 - another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 - another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
 
Fidelis said:
You are forgetting the young man’s initial question to Jesus:

"What must I do to obtain eternal life?"
Click to expand...
Yes, he asked, what must I do. He was Jewish and at that time he was still under the Law. But he deceived himself in thinking he had kept the Law since his youth. So Jesus took him even further. He knew his inward love of money and possessions so he told him to sell all that he had and follow Him. Did he really love God with all his soul, strength and mind? No, I don’t think so. And those whom Jesus called to “follow” Him were called to “believe” in Him for eternal life. We don’t know if this young man ever believed in Christ, but at the time he wasn’t willing to “follow” Him.

The “gospel” is not “what must I do?,” but the “good news” of what Christ did for us. And “what must I do?,” is “believe it” for eternal life.
 
Fidelis said:
You are forgetting the young man’s initial question to Jesus:

"What must I do to obtain eternal life?"

The young man is clearly asking about salvation here. Jesus answer to this direct question is:

"if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments"

and

" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

So that’s it. That’s what the man needs to do to obtain salvation. As the scene plays out, the man reveals that he has done all these things (which, according to Jesus, means he at least has salvation), but is looking for something deeper:

**And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven**: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

“Treasure in heaven”-- not heaven by itself, but by becoming Jesus’ faithful disciple and imitating him in all things (including taking up our Cross) we gain more glory or more honor or more whatever in heaven, in addition to salvation which, we see by the first part of this story, the young man is already able to possess by keeping the commandments.

Read the entire story in it’s complete context and it’s amazing what you’ll find! 👍
Click to expand...
Yahshua said time and again that He cam that we would obtain life and more abundant life. So, there are measures to the abundance of life.

Obedience brings favor and blessing, treasures in heaven or more simply obedience brings life.

That said, if we live by the law, we will die in sin. Eternal life is given us by gace through faith. The measure or abundance of ‘life’ is predicated on our obedience.
 
apophasis said:
Yes, he asked, what must I do. He was Jewish and at that time he was still under the Law. But he deceived himself in thinking he had kept the Law since his youth. So Jesus took him even further. He knew his inward love of money and possessions so he told him to sell all that he had and follow Him. Did he really love God with all his soul, strength and mind? No, I don’t think so. And those whom Jesus called to “follow” Him were called to “believe” in Him for eternal life. We don’t know if this young man ever believed in Christ, but at the time he wasn’t willing to “follow” Him.

The “gospel” is not “what must I do?,” but the “good news” of what Christ did for us. And “what must I do?,” is “believe it” for eternal life.
Click to expand...
AMEN! Truth…^^^^!
 
HalleluYAH said:
AMEN! Truth…^^^^!
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That’s nice. Now allow me to repeat my simple question. Can you enter heaven (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) without obeying God’s commandments? Choose one:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.
 
VociMike said:
Why not just answer my question? Any time I ask my simple question I never get a straight answer, only hemming and hawing and evasion.

But I will lead by example, and answer my own question directly. For myself, I cannot enter heaven without obedience to the commandments, however imperfect.

Your turn. 🙂
Click to expand...
That’s too bad. Define for me “the commandments.”
 
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apophasis:
Actually, here’s the choice He gives in respect to ETERNAL life:John 3:14-18 … John 5:24… Rom. 4:4 Doesn’t look to me like a salvation based on “cooperation,” but through personal belief in Christ alone. So either Christ and His Apostles got it wrong or Rome did. I’ll stick with the original sources.
Click to expand...
Ah perfectly proof-texted. Gotta love what is left out. As for the original sources: what might those be?

😃
 
HalleluYAH said:
Yahshua said time and again that He cam that we would obtain life and more abundant life. So, there are measures to the abundance of life.

Obedience brings favor and blessing, treasures in heaven or more simply obedience brings life.

That said, if we live by the law, we will die in sin. Eternal life is given us by gace through faith. The measure or abundance of ‘life’ is predicated on our obedience.
Click to expand...
But even demons have faith.
 
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apophasis:
In the context of Rome’s “gospel” of “salvation by cooperation,”
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This is insulting. Please refrain.
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apophasis:
the real question is: “Can you enter heaven by obeying commandments?”
Click to expand...
Please answer Vocimike’s question. This is afterall a discussion.
 
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