Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[HalleluYAH]

What is the nature of that trap? What is your fear? If you have the right answer, then you have nothing to fear. If you have the wrong answer, then you also have nothing to fear – except obstinately clinging to wrongness.

Ah! A predictable reply. It was only a question of time before it got personal. Folks usually make things personal when they run out of subtantive support for their positions but are unwilling to let go of those positions.

Moreover when they run out of substantive support for their positions, then they have conceded the point.

Accusing Voci Mike of being the author of unfruitful works of darkness is removing the exchange from the realm of respect, reason, and reference into the realm of the personal attack. You have therefore conceded the point.

Well done, HalleluYAH!

the answer to his question can be found in my signature below.

 

[mikeledes]

Michael,

I understand that works bring favor. However, eternal life or ‘salvation’ is a matter of faith.

Moreover, works which are not born out of faith are empty. Faith is accounted to us as righteousness. And, these works born of faith, are evidence of our faith. Only YAH can judge these works. What seems right to man is not always right with YAHWEH. He sees the heart and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And yet these verses make no mention of gaining just favor with God. They are directly talking about eternal life. The works have to be rooted in faith in order to be of any value before God. This is standard Catholic teaching. But failure to persevere in followup one’s faith with works will result in loss of salvation. The only faith that will ultimately save is faith that works through love.

BTW, do you consider prayers works?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[FCEGM]

Yes, this is true. However, you have all missed the point that none of us can obey HIS law in full. Moreover, if you fall short on even one point of the law, you have offended in all. What does this do to your theology on Yahshua’s words?

Yes, we should strive to being holy oand fully obedient. However, this is comes over time. Without HIS holy spirit coming in us, we can not even hope to know HIS will, let alone obey it.

The law was a mirror to Christ. The law shows our need for Christ. We love Christ becuase HE first loved us. We obey HIM out of love. Obedience is a matter of the heart, not outward imagery as some would perceive it.

The works we do by grace are Christ’s own work within us. IOW, He accomplishes in and through us by His transforming grace what He would have us be and do. So Christ is meriting within us for us. We, then, by the gift of our free will (a will that is truly set free as it more and more embraces the will of the Father) give our assent to His action in our lives – or not.

So it is not an accumulation of our “good works” that saves us, but rather the good works that Christ Himself accomplishes in us if we offer no resistance; the growth of our spiritual life depends on responding to that grace and being more attentive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit to extend the Incarnation by our acts of faith, hope and charity, and by the practice of the virtues. To paraphrase Scott Hahn, Christ did not do all the works so that we don’t have to do anything, but Christ sends His Holy Spirit on us so that we now can live by the Law of Love.

With God’s grace we can avoid sin and must be determined to avoid mortal sin or we will lose God’s grace and thus salvation. With God’s grace we can further determine to avoid venial sin. With God’s grace we can do this because, as our Lord told St. Paul, “My grace is sufficient for you,” i.e., to live virtuously under trial and not sin. Some erroneously take an either/or position, i.e., either it’s all God’s grace and not our doing at all, or its all our doing and not God’s grace at all. The Scriptural Truth is that it is all God’s grace and our doing it at the same time. Thus when a Catholic says salvation depends on avoiding serious sin he presupposes that this is with God’s grace, while Protestants presuppose the opposite because of simplistic either/or thinking which is a defect of the mind applied to the question of grace and free will.

Thus the Protestant understanding of grace is stemming from an erroneous human way of thinking in absolute either/or categories. They cannot image a cooperation between man and God, i.e., of God putting a person in a state of grace qualitatively so that his free will actions under grace and with grace brings about the result of salvation first willed by God and simultaneously willed by the person’s free will, i.e., that the grace of God’s will enters the free will of the believer in a way that does not force it, but can be ignored, which if not ignored brings about salvation, God and the person acting together.

So, we can not absolutely know the end result before it happens (God of course knows) because we can not absolutely know if we are in the state of grace affecting the outcome; we can trust, however, that we are because of Christ offering the Sacraments and our accepting them and because we can sense God’s grace making us virtuous. But we cannot know absolutely beforehand that we are already saved nor can we absolutely know if it’s the Holy Spirit that is moving us, i.e., in denial of a Truth revealed to the Church.

These may help:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a127.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a119.htm

 

[Ani_Ibi]

the answer to his question can be found in my signature below.

Wrong! You have not even acknowledged the question but have skipped on through to ignoring it completely. You are not discussing. You are lecturing. So noted.

 

[VociMike]

the answer to his question can be found in my signature below.

No, I can assure you that Eph 2:8-9 does not answer my question as directed specifically at you. Let me repeat it here, and you will see that Eph 2:8-9 says nothing about it:

Can you enter heaven (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) without obeying God’s commandments? Choose one:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments, however imperfectly.

Now if you continue to insist that Eph 2:8-9 does answer this question, then simply tell us which choice Eph 2:8-9 teaches you about your own salvation, choice (a) or choice (b).

 

[mikeledes]

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

Rereading these verses, HalleluYah, I don’t see any reference to reaping “mere favor.” It says reaping “eternal life.”

God bless,
Michael

 

[Fidelis]

Yes, he asked, what must I do. He was Jewish and at that time he was still under the Law. But he deceived himself in thinking he had kept the Law since his youth. So Jesus took him even further.

You have lost sight of the fact that Jesus directly answered his question: What shall I do?. Jesus didn’t say, “Forget all that moral Law and Ten Commandments stuff,” he said “Keep the commandments.” There is no indication from the text that the young man had “deceived himself in thinking he had kept the Law since his youth.” This is a weak extrapolation added by “faith alone” adherents to justify their man-made doctrine.

*It was only after this *that Jesus “took him further” based on Jesus’ obvious acknowledgement that the man was indeed speaking accurately about keeping the Commandments. This is why Jesus “looked on him with love” and invited him to take the next step of being a Christlike disciple by giving up all --a step the young man was not able to take (at that time, anyway).

 

[mikeledes]

HalleluYah, I think you should read the following links. They can help you in understanding Catholic teachings on salvation.

home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/grace2.html

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2138

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2125

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by bones_IV
No. I’m saying that to believe “in Christ” is to believe He did it all right. We agree here… it IS all his work. And Catholics aren’t claiming it is a work of their own doing… NOT AT ALL!

The RCC states differently.

Mr. HalleluYAH: you have just shown how little you know of what the Catholic Church really teaches. This explains a lot.

If you are more interested in learning than in attacking something you know nothing about, I’m sure several posters can offer you good resources to begin your education.

 

[bones_IV]

And your point is…?

My point is that Catholics don’t depend on good deeds for salvation. We rely on God for salvation. One can say they believe in Christ but contradict His will. Just like how a man can claim himself to be a Christian but turns around and commits adultery. Again you overlook the letter of St. James where it says that a faith without works is a faith that’s dead. Even St. John the Baptist’s listeners thought they were already saved. You’re not saved until you get to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[apophasis]

James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Now really. The context of James is completely different (see Ja. 1:14, 18).

Fidelis, did Abraham live before Moses of after Moses? Before the Law or after the Law? Was he reckoned by God righteous before he was circumcised or after? When you answer these questions then you might begin to grasp Paul’s teaching on justification in Romans four.

But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

Yes, human actions can help to perfect* faith*, but not even James states that it perfects justificaton which is divinely reckoned" based on faith. And the content of that faith by which God reckons righteousness is the redemptive work of His Son, not ours.

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis, did Abraham live before Moses of after Moses? Before the Law or after the Law? Was he reckoned by God righteous before he was circumcised or after? When you answer these questions then you might begin to grasp Paul’s teaching on justification in Romans four.

:tiphat: Thank you, but I already have a grasp of Romans 4, as I stated above – I’d appreciate if you read my posts more carefully, but I’ll repeat it for your benefit because that’s the kind of guy I am.

The entire point of the chapter is not concerned with good deeds but with convincing Paul’s Jewish listeners that it is not neccessary to keep the Jewish Law in order to be justified. This is why he points out that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. Circumcison was identified heavily with the Law, which was not given by God until about 500 years after Abraham lived.

The point is (again) that Romans 4:4 is part of an extended lesson by Paul about how it was not necessary for either the Jewish Christians or the Gentiles to keep the Jewish Law to be justified.** He is not here addressing the moral law, the commandments, doing good, avoiding sin, etc, etc, that elsewhere in his writings --and throughout the New Testament-- it is clear that we will not be saved without.**

Repeat after me:

Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.

Got it? Good!

 

[mikeledes]

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

And yet these verses still stand. The Gospel of Salvation incorporates the entire Word of God, particularlly the New testament, not just one or two chapters of an epistle.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Since some protestants condemn the idea that we have to obey God to enter heaven, or that we have to intend to obey God if we repent just before we die, then is Jesus a heretic?
In other words, since the teaching of Jesus that we must obey Him to enter heaven is condemned as salvation by works, then does that make Jesus a heretic in their religion.

Jesus said, “if you wish to enter life, keep the commandments”

Notice that Jesus gives us a choice, in order to enter heaven we must keep the commandments.

And again.
Luke 10-27-28
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-25383b")]" 28"You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. **“Do this and you will live.” **

Again, to live eternally we must keep the commandments.
Of course the Church also teaches that it is by grace we have received through faith, at baptism, that we even have a right to heaven. But, nevertheless, Jesus makes it clear, as does the Church, that we also must cooperate with this grace to enter heaven.

**Thus, is Jesus a heretic in their religion because He doesn’t agree with Martin Luther?

In fact is St. Paul heretical in their religion because he says we must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?
**
Or when these Protestants find verses that seem to support “faith alone”, by Jesus and St. Paul does that mean that Jesus and St. Paul are only heretical part time?
**
In their religion, do Jesus and St. Paul teach a false Gospel part of the time since they don’t always agree with Luther or Calvin?**

How do they rationalize these verses?

Just curious?

I have not seen Apophasis lately, but I can post here some of the responses he has made that may relate to your questions:

The doctrines of salvation are not found in, or built upon, parables - not even Christ’s. They’re found in the post-cross teachings of the Epistles. The parables Christ presented to the Jews, prior to His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, did not necessarily take His atoning work on the cross into consideration. His parables taught, in a limited way, a specific lesson by example, but they are not salvation doctrines based on and rooted in His atoning work on the cross. For these you must go to the Epistles.

But Jesus did not teach salvation in the context of the crosss, since that event was yet future when He taught the parables. For this reason, if you want to truly understand salvation, this side of the cross, and in light of it, you must turn to the Epistles - especially Pauline. By divine revelation Paul was given great insight into this “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:3-5).

The doctrines of salvation, in light of the historical, finished work of Christ on the cross, are presented and fully explained in the Epistles, not Christ’s parables.

Can you show me where Jesus teaches specifically about justification, redemption, propitiation, identification, sanctification, etc. in the parables?

Why would Jesus give Paul insight into the mystery of Himself if He’d already disclosed it all to Israel? And why would he teach these post-cross mysteries to unbelievers? Truths that are addressed to faith and concern only believers.

I’m not saying Jesus didn’t teach about salvation. In fact He spoke a lot about eternal life through faith in Him alone. And He specifically presented Himself as the object of salvation faith. But He did not disclose to them the “doctrines of salvation” which could only be presented and fully understood AFTER His sacrificial, substitutionary death, burial, bodily resurrection and ascension. ALL on which the “doctrines of salvation” are based.

So basically, Jesus did not have much of any relevance to say about salvation at all, since He had not yet been crucified.

Another common error that is made in discussing this topic is that a distinction is not properly made between works of the flesh, and sacred works. It is inappropriate to speak of these as though they were one and the same, but many that criticise the doing of works will make that mistake.

 

[apophasis]

Ah perfectly proof-texted. Gotta love what is left out.

You mean like “faith?”

As for the original sources: what might those be?

Christ, the Apostles, and the teachings of GRACE based on the cross of Christ found in the N.T. Epistles.

 

[apophasis]

God’s commandments, whatever you understand that to mean. C’mon, it shouldn’t be this hard.

When you’re preaching salvation based on obedience to commandments, then you’ve got to be specific. Which commandments produce salvation and possess they key to open Paradise?

 

[VociMike]

When you’re preaching salvation based on obedience to commandments, then you’ve got to be specific. Which commandments produce salvation and possess they key to open Paradise?

In the first place, who is preaching “salvation based on obedience to commandments”? Not I. Read the question more closely.

In the second place, I think you’re just being evasive at this point, since I have already said you may define “God’s commandments” in any reasonable way you wish. Here, I’ll help you along:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here) in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here), however imperfectly.

I really feel like I’m pulling teeth here, and it’s such a simple question.

 

[mikeledes]

In the first place, who is preaching “salvation based on obedience to commandments”? Not I. Read the question more closely.

In the second place, I think you’re just being evasive at this point, since I have already said you may define “God’s commandments” in any reasonable way you wish. Here, I’ll help you along:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here) in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here), however imperfectly.

I really feel like I’m pulling teeth here, and it’s such a simple question.

Don’t hold your breath!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[heisenburg]

John 3:14-18
This is an interesting selection of proofs. People always seem to forget the end of this section. 19,20,21 go into further detail on what he means.

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God

NIV

Why in this same section does it later talk about doing something… not just believing

Also… as mention, Romans 4 is in no way contrary to CC teaching… Primarily because Paul is talking about salvation via the old Jewish Law and adherence to all the old rules as mentioned in Lev. and Ex. Not against works period

And yes, we must be obedient… not to gain anything, but to keep.

We are given eternal life because of grace alone. If we do not have faith AND obedience, we are refusing that gift.

Much like a job. You are hired for a job. Once you have the job, if you don’t do what you are hired for, you get fired. but who realy lost the job for you… you did

We do not earn salvation by works… they way you mention it, you imply that we teach we earn the job based on the work we do at the job after we were already given the Job… this is nonsense.

We cant work at the job until we are hired.

And Yes, Obedience is required… show me in the bible were it says otherwise.

But then you must also explain why there are so many passages in both the old and the new that talk about what happens to those that do NOT obey.

Are you really going to call me a heathen and going to hell because i am saying we HAVE TO, NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER, believe in Christ AND obey him?

To the one who says that Christ was talking about our treasure in heave…
Please read the verse more carefully…

it says.

“What must I do to obtain eternal life”
“Keep the commandments and follow me”

This has nothing to do with stored up extra treasure…

In Christ

 

[Ani_Ibi]

apophasis:

You mean like “faith?”

Could you set out your point of view in at least one sentence please so that we can understand it?

apophasis:

Christ, the Apostles, and the teachings of GRACE based on the cross of Christ found in the N.T. Epistles.

Again, this is not a point of view. Just a stab in the dark.