Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[Fidelis]

When you’re preaching salvation based on obedience to commandments, then you’ve got to be specific. Which commandments produce salvation and possess they key to open Paradise?

Can you be more specific? Are you talking about the OT Laws (ritual, purity, moral) or laws in general?

In general, we are obliged to keep the moral laws – both natural (Romans 1:16–2-16) and revealed (like the Ten Commandments). Both of these types of laws come from the same place, that is, from God.

Since Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross, the OT liturgical and purity Laws were abolished, but the moral laws (to which all the liturgical laws were just an end or an aid) remain (just like Jesus told the rich young ruler). It’s just that now, under the New Covenant, we have the grace from God to obey them, which is why we have no excuse when we don’t.

 

[mikeledes]

In order to undertand Paul’s teachings in Romans 4, we must undertand the historical and theological context of what was going on. When Paul uses the term “Law”, he is referring to the Law of Moses as a whole (Moral and Ceremonial). In other words, “the Law” is the Old Covenant. The Jews and Jewish “Christians” claimed that righteousness and salvation could be obtained through observance of the Old Covenant (Acts 15).

Why did this pose a problem to the Christian gospel of salvation? If salvation and righteousness could be accomplished by mere observance of the Law, then the work of Christ would not be necessary. We would be able to pay the eternal debt of our sins and break the power sin and death over our lives. And yet, Paul points out that the Law did not accomplish that. What it did was point to our own sinfulness and made us aware of our inability to break the power of sin and death in our lives:

Romans 7:7-12

**7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. **

It pointed to and condemned our sins, but did not provide the means to liberate ourselves from the power of sin and death. Hence the necessity of Jesus:

Romans 8:2-4

**2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. **

Through and in Christ, the debt of our sins were paid and the power of sin was broken. On the basis of Christ’s work on the Cross, the Christian is now liberated from the debt and power of sin and is now free to walk in the Spirit, something they could not do while still under the “flesh.”

Romans 8:6-8

6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now that we are freed from the power of sin and death, we enjoy the freedom to live in righteousness, in a way that pleases God:

Romans 6:12-14, 18-19

**12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. **

All of this was accomplished not on the basis of the Old Covenant, which is the point of Romans 4. To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

Continuation…

But what now? What happens after the Christian has been liberated from the debt of sin and the power sin and death had over his/her life. The Christian is no longer under the Law, and hence there is no obligation to observe the ceremonial precepts of the Law (i.e. circumcision, dietary laws, etc.). But is the Christian no longer bound to observe the moral law of God? Absolutely not! However, the Christian observes this moral law under a new principle, LOVE, a fruit of the Holy Sprit given to every Christian. In fact, the Christians are no longer under the Law (Old Covenant), but under the Law of Christ:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

And what is the Law of Christ?

James 2:8

**8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. **

This is the new commadment given to the Christian by Christ Himself. This is the Law of Christ. So those in Christ now must fulfill this law for on the basis of this law they shall be judged:

James 2:12

**12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. **

Faith makes us heirs to the kingdom, but only those who have faith working through love will actually inherit (possess) the kingdom:

James 2:5

5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

The kingdom is promised to those who love God and loving God includes loving neighbor (1 John 5:21).

That is why Jesus Himself responded to the lawyer’s question on inheriting eternal life in the age to come as follows:

Luke 10:25-28

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

Love God and love neignhbor and you will inherit the eternal kingdom. This love, of course, must be united to faith. In fact, this love is impossible without faith and without being in Christ. But what does loving God mean?

2 John 6

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

That is why he responds to the rich young man that if he wanted to enter into life, he had to keep the commandments. But what was wrong? The rich young man’s observance of the commandments were not rooted in a faith working through love. Instead, Jesus demonstrated that the rich young man did not love God will all his heart, mind, soul, etc. and his neighbor because he refused to give up his wealth to follow Christ (i.e. God) and refused to sell his belongings to give to the poor (neoghbor). He lacked the agape love required of the Christians and which infuses the moral law as observed by those in Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Within this broader understanding of the Gospel of salvation the following verses must be understood:

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

Those Christians who fail to have a faith that perseveres in working through love will not be inherit the kingdom of God (i.e. eternal life in the age to come). That is why jesus says that only those who persevere to the end will be saved. All of this is possible because of the work of Christ. If it weren’t for the work of Christ, we would be under the Law, under the power of sin and death, and in the flesh, unable to please God. Through the Cross, we are liberated from sin and given the Holy Spirit to empower us to live a life of love. Because of the Cross of Christ, we are able to fulfill the Law of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW, Paul emphasizes the fact that Abraham was justified before the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) in order to emphasize the fact that man can be justified by faith apart from the Old Covenant and he later establishes in the other chapters that even observance of the Old Covenant could not justify because man was incapabe of paying the debt of his sins and liberate himself from the power of sin and death. Thus destroying the argument that observance of the Law of Moses was necessary, hence the only means, by which a man could be saved. Note how Paul in Romans 4 points out that Abraham was justified before he was circumised. Why? Because circumcision was a defining work of Law (Old Covenant) and demonstrated that circumcision did not justify or save.

God bless,
michael

 

[mikeledes]

2 John 6

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Loving God is obeying His commadments. Sin is a violation of the moral law of God. A Christian is completely capable of sinning because he still has concupiscence, or what some Protestants call the “sin nature.” When we chose to sin, we chose against God. We chose rebellion over obedience. If a Christian commits adultery, he is an adulterer. If a Christian commits a fornication, he is a fornicator. What instruction and warning does Hebrews 13:4 regarding these sins:

4Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

And Galatians 5:19 - 21 states:

**19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. **

There is no need of a warning if there is no threat of danger. A warning, by its very nature, means that one is potentially in danger. Dictionary.com defines the word “warn” as follows:

1. to give notice, advice, or intimation to (a person, group, etc.) of danger, impending evil, possible harm, or anything else unfavorable

The Bible urges us to pursue holiness, to pursue sanctification. Why?

Hebrews 12:14

**14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. **

Without sanctification, we will not see the Lord. We will not be saved. What does pursuing sanctification involve?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7

3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also old you before and solemnly warned you. 7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.

Romans 6:19
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

2 Peter 1:15-17

15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth.

Loving God is pursuing sanctification by obeying His commandments. Those who fail to do so, Christians included, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I will most likely not be online for the next two days.

 

[apophasis]

:tiphat: Thank you, but I already have a grasp of Romans 4, as I stated above – I’d appreciate if you read my posts more carefully, but I’ll repeat it for your benefit because that’s the kind of guy I am.

The entire point of the chapter is not concerned with good deeds but with convincing Paul’s Jewish listeners that it is not neccessary to keep the Jewish Law in order to be justified. This is why he points out that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. Circumcison was identified heavily with the Law, which was not given by God until about 500 years after Abraham lived.

The point is (again) that Romans 4:4 is part of an extended lesson by Paul about how it was not necessary for either the Jewish Christians or the Gentiles to keep the Jewish Law to be justified.** He is not here addressing the moral law, the commandments, doing good, avoiding sin, etc, etc, that elsewhere in his writings --and throughout the New Testament-- it is clear that we will not be saved without.**

Actually, Romans four is an extension of what Paul lays out in chapter three regarding the righteousness of God through faith alone in Jesus Christ. He points out the purpose of the Law, that through it came the knowledge of sin (3:20, such as the Ten Commandments), but completely APART from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile (3:21-22).

In 3:23-24 he states that ALL (both Jews and Gentiles) sinned and are falling short of the glory of God, being justified (How?) as a gift by His grace (How? Works of any kind? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. The power of the cross.

Paul, in Romans four, cites two men: Abraham and David. One lived long before the Law existed and the other born under it. BOTH were justified through FAITH alone.Rom. 4:5 "But to the one who does not work but BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned to him as righteousness"Divinely justified by faith totally apart from works is a continuous teaching by Paul in his letters. It’s at the heart of his theology. It’s the core of his gospel message to the churches. If you fail to understand what he’s teaching in Romans three and four, Fidelis, you never understand him at all.

Repeat after me:

Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.
Romans 4:4 is not talking about good works.

I agree, Paul is not talking about works at all but FAITH. Verses four and five must be read together.Rom. 4:16 “For this reason it is BY FAITH, that it might be in accordance with GRACE…” Got it? Stop perverting it.

 

[apophasis]

In the first place, who is preaching “salvation based on obedience to commandments”? Not I. Read the question more closely.

In the second place, I think you’re just being evasive at this point, since I have already said you may define “God’s commandments” in any reasonable way you wish. Here, I’ll help you along:

a) Yes, I can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here) in the least.

b) No, I cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (describe or define those commandments here), however imperfectly.

Which commandments? You must be specific. One commandment is *“believe in the Lord Jesus Christ…” * I cannot enter heaven if I don’t obey that one. I have, however, obeyed it, so I, with all certainty, will enter heaven.

You, on the other hand, said you cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments. Which commandments are you trying to obey in order to enter heaven? Which commandments do you believe hold such power?

Now we know that only the saved will enter heaven, so I must conclude that you are preaching a salvation by works “gospel.” A wholly different gospel than the one I have believed and is found in the N.T. Epistles. See Gal. 1:6-10.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In the context of Rome’s “gospel” of “salvation by cooperation,” the real question is: “Can you enter heaven by obeying commandments?”

“If you love me, you will obey my commands.”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[VociMike]

Which commandments? You must be specific. One commandment is *“believe in the Lord Jesus Christ…” * I cannot enter heaven if I don’t obey that one. I have, however, obeyed it, so I, with all certainty, will enter heaven.

You, on the other hand, said you cannot enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments. Which commandments are you trying to obey in order to enter heaven? Which commandments do you believe hold such power?

Now we know that only the saved will enter heaven, so I must conclude that you are preaching a salvation by works “gospel.” A wholly different gospel than the one I have believed and is found in the N.T. Epistles. See Gal. 1:6-10.

Since you have chosen to posit a quirky and unreasonable definition of “God’s commandments”, I will assume until you correct me that you believe (a), You (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (reasonably defined) in the least, but only by believing in Christ.

 

[guanophore]

being justified (How?) as a gift by His grace (How? Works of any kind? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. The power of the cross.

Rom. 4:16 “For this reason it is BY FAITH, that it might be in accordance with GRACE…”[/indent] Got it?

When I heard the readings of the day, Apo, I found myself immediately wondering how you would explain them.

"They strengthened the spirits of the disciples
and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying,
“It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships
to enter the Kingdom of God.”Acts 14:19-28

Since nothing on our part can make us enter eternal life, do you think that Luke is not talking about salvation?

If not, then what is the difference between being saved, and entering the kingdom?

 

[guanophore]

Yahshua said time and again that He cam that we would obtain life and more abundant life. So, there are measures to the abundance of life.

Obedience brings favor and blessing, treasures in heaven or more simply obedience brings life.

That said, if we live by the law, we will die in sin. Eternal life is given us by gace through faith. The measure or abundance of ‘life’ is predicated on our obedience.

You need to spend some time reading the posts of Apophasis. The way you are wording this sounds WAY too Catholic! If “obedience brings life” then it could be said that obeying the commandments is what gets us into heaven!

I can enter the kingdom ONLY though the covering of Yahshua’s blood for the multitude of my
sins.

How to you “apply” that cleansing blood to yourself?

postscript

Sorry Hal, after I posted this I saw that you were banned, so I guess you will not be able to answer!

Did you do that in ONE DAY! Mercy. I was going to say that your posts were sounding very accusatory and judgmental and remind you that the same measure would be applied to yourself. Since you made it clear that you wanted to “ban” Catholicism, I guess you are now reaping what you were sowing?

 

[apophasis]

Since you have chosen to posit a quirky and unreasonable definition of “God’s commandments”, I will assume until you correct me that you believe (a), You (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (reasonably defined) in the least, but only by believing in Christ.

Actually it’s your questioning that’s totally unreasonable. You’re trying to falsely conclude (and accuse) that those who teach salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone (like Paul, Peter and John, even Christ) say obedience to God has no part in the daily life of the saved. But neither I nor Christ, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor John teach such nonsense. It is the saved by grace through faith that are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and whose desire it is (being now “in Christ”) to be pleasing to God.2 Cor. 4:18 - 5:9 "…while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord – for we walk by faith, not by sight – we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.The truly saved have as their ambition to be pleasing to the Lord. Is this done perfectly at all times? Of course not! Nor does our salvation hinge on such perfection but it was gifted to us by God through our faith in the perfect, sacrificial work of His unblemished Lamb (Jn. 3:14-18), through which we “have been justified,” giftwise, in His sight:Rom. 3:24 "…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (cf. Rom. 5:1-2)It is because of my divinely revealed indentification in Christ, not condemnation through disobeyed commandments, that motivates me to be pleasing to God. I am not under law but under grace. This is what “faith working through love” means.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

When I heard the readings of the day, Apo, I found myself immediately wondering how you would explain them.

"They strengthened the spirits of the disciples
and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying,
“It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships
to enter the Kingdom of God.”Acts 14:19-28

Since nothing on our part can make us enter eternal life, do you think that Luke is not talking about salvation?

If not, then what is the difference between being saved, and entering the kingdom?

Another perverbial corner…

 

[apophasis]

When I heard the readings of the day, Apo, I found myself immediately wondering how you would explain them.

"They strengthened the spirits of the disciples
and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying,
“It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships
to enter the Kingdom of God.”Acts 14:19-28

Since nothing on our part can make us enter eternal life, do you think that Luke is not talking about salvation?

If not, then what is the difference between being saved, and entering the kingdom?

Their undergoing hardships is not a condition for entering the Kingdom of God. It was a reality they were to experience based on the hostility of the times in which they were living. An exhortation to “persevere in the faith” is not addressed as a threat to their salvation. Exhortations are not threats - except maybe perceived as such to those in unbelief.Col 1:13-14 “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

 

[Bishopite]

Actually, here’s the choice He gives in respect to ETERNAL life:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And again:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Looks to me like Jesus taught eternal life based on belief in Him and Him alone. I don’t see a “cooperative” salvation gospel coming from Jesus, nor His Apostles: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” The choice is either believe or don’t believe. They both have their eternal consequences. As does “work” vs. “does not work.”:Rom. 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,** his faith** is credited as righteousness,"Doesn’t look to me like a salvation based on “cooperation,” but through personal belief in Christ alone. So either Christ and His Apostles got it wrong or Rome did. I’ll stick with the original sources.

First of all, we don’t work our way to heaven but we do works with faith, so that those works are actually God’s works in and through us. St. Augustine says when God crowns our works He simply crowns His own works; this is exactly like the Mt 25 example.

If you prooftext scripture then it is very easy to show one side of the picture. Cooperation (synergism) IS in fact scriptural that’s why Jesus said in Mt 16:24"Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me."

Whoever is everyone who wills to pick up their cross, cooperate with God’s grace. And why do you ignore verses like…
Romans 8:28 is a verse that speaks of us cooperating with God’s grace. We read…“in everything God works for good with sunergei eis agathon] those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.” (KJV)

Yes, we have to believe, but also cooperate with grace.

"The Bible is a synergist book because in the most literal sense possible it uses synergistic language. One cannot denounce the language of synergism without denouncing the language of the Bible. For example, in Mark 16:20 we read: “And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with [sunergountos] them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen.” Here we have a declaration that God worked with the apostles in their ministry of preaching. This of itself shows that the language of men cooperating with God cannot be considered unbiblical. (The Salvation Controversy, Jimmy Akin page 90)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

apophasis:

Which commandments? You must be specific.

Which ones did Jesus specify?

apophasis:

One commandment is *“believe in the Lord Jesus Christ…” *

Then believing is a work.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Since you have chosen to posit a quirky and unreasonable definition of “God’s commandments”, I will assume until you correct me that you believe (a), You (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) can enter heaven without obeying God’s commandments (reasonably defined) in the least, but only by believing in Christ.

Have they still not deigned to answer your two questions? Go figure! Who would have known two simple questions would pose such an insurmountable obstacle to some posters.

 

[VociMike]

Have they still not deigned to answer your two questions? Go figure! Who would have known two simple questions would pose such an insurmountable obstacle to some posters.

Yeah, who’da thunk it? But seriously, this is the corner they have painted themselves into by distorting the understanding that nothing we do can earn us salvation (true), into the misunderstanding that we are not called upon by God to take any part in our salvation, and must never even think in those terms (false).

Since nobody will answer my question here, maybe they’ll take a look at my faith-alone and the rich man thread. Perhaps I can trap them there (oops, cat out of bag! ).

 

[guanophore]

Their undergoing hardships is not a condition for entering the Kingdom of God. It was a reality they were to experience based on the hostility of the times in which they were living. An exhortation to “persevere in the faith” is not addressed as a threat to their salvation. Exhortations are not threats - except maybe perceived as such to those in unbelief.Col 1:13-14 “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

So then you would say that if a person fails to persevere, and does not embrace the hardships as they come that person was never saved in the first place?

Also, do you think that Mark was such a one, when he bailed out on the missionary journey with Paul? Did he not come to saving faith until later?