A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
This is a generalism. You’d have to overlook an awful lot to say this.
- Status
A
apophasis
Guest
Not FOR salvation:Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…"
Not FOR salvation. Scripture speaks of only ONE work by which God saves and justifies men: Christ’s redemptive work on the cross"For all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift (how? works done through ME? NO!), through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."
Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, He saved us (how? by works done through me? NO!), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life."There is only ONE work through which God saves, and that’s the redemptive work of His own Son. A work which only He could do. Paul does not agree with Rome’s “cooperation salvation” gospel (Gal. 1:6-9).
Yes, for discipleship. But for eternal life He saidJohn 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.“Cooperation salvation” is RC, not Biblical.
The “called” are those who are already saved through faith in Christ alone.
That’s Rome’s “gospel,” not Paul’s.
Of course He worked with the Apostles in their ministry. But not FOR their salvation. They were already saved through faith in Christ’s redemptive work. In fact, it’s His work on the cross they were preaching.1 Cor 1:23 "…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.There is only ONE work by which God saves: Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross. And unless one puts his faith in that work alone, he cannot be saved. It’s the gospel.
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Your vaunted original source is an invention of the 16th century. My brother, your interpretation is based on cherry-picked Scripture passages, not on the Bible as a whole.
15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16: and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18: But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James 2:15-26)
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
(Romans 2:5-8)
Furthermore the Early Church had no concept of Sola Fide
“Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God…, being justified by our works, and not our words.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).
“For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.” Epistle of Barnabas, 2 (A.D. 132).
“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also,** if we do His will, and walk in His commandments**, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’” Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power…But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 6 (A.D. 155).
“On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, ‘Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as One beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway.’ This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam).” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:7 (A.D. 180).
H
heisenburg
Guest
Greetings to you in christ Kaycee… You brought up a few interesting points that I would like to comment on…
The answer is no…
Keep in mind, we are already saved. Do the works we do after being saved earn that salvation? No. Thats because it was already given to us. We can’t earn something we already have. So, in essence, your statement is accurate. So why then does the catholic church teach we must absolutely have to be obedient.
Think about it like this.
You are hired by a company. You do amazingly good work. does the fact that you did amazingly good work effect whether or not they hired you? Of course not. That is in physics known as a causality problem. Same set up. Does the fact the you do poorly and sit at your computer doing nothing all day long, does THAT affect whether or not you were hired. Again, same answer no.
Now… what happens to the person that works well at his job. He keeps his job. simply enough, but his work didn’t affect his being hired. What about the person that was lazy? He was fired. He lost his job. Did his laziness affect his being hired? No, but it did affect his keeping his job.
Replace hire with saved… and its the same set up.
Did his works save him? no Grace alone did that (eph2:8)
Are his works necessary though once he is saved? Yes (James 2)
so, to get into heaven. you must be faithful, and obedient.
Does this mean it is a works centric salvation though? No. your works didn’t effect you being saved.
this understanding only creates issues with OSAS. They still will not agree because their understanding is once you are saved, you cant do anything to loose it. But to a non-OSAS protestants, this analogy should help
your other statement
Faith is simply the belief in something not yet seen.
nothing more, nothing less. Faith doesn’t force people to do works. Faith isn’t complicate. However, when using the complicated definition of Faith, you can accidentally distort your understanding if the bible because a word means something different to you than the authors intended. Reading Hebrews 11 with the dictionary understanding of the word faith gives a different (and deeper) meaning than if it is a magical word that lets people magically know what they are suppose to do and will magically do it as has often been described to me by protestants.
Faith is simply the belief in something not yet seen. Saying it means more than that also violates th bible. Paul very explicitly warned us not to argue about words and the meaning of words for this will lead you to destruction. Faith means the belief in something not yet seen. If you think it means more, you distort the bible
Hope that helps
In Christ
From my understanding of catholic doctrine… in essence this is still true. We believe we are saved at baptism. God gives us the grace of salvation as a free gift. We didn’t earn it, and we can’t do anything to earn it. The question always comes, well, isn’t requiring obedience a ‘works salvation’?
The answer is no…
Keep in mind, we are already saved. Do the works we do after being saved earn that salvation? No. Thats because it was already given to us. We can’t earn something we already have. So, in essence, your statement is accurate. So why then does the catholic church teach we must absolutely have to be obedient.
Think about it like this.
You are hired by a company. You do amazingly good work. does the fact that you did amazingly good work effect whether or not they hired you? Of course not. That is in physics known as a causality problem. Same set up. Does the fact the you do poorly and sit at your computer doing nothing all day long, does THAT affect whether or not you were hired. Again, same answer no.
Now… what happens to the person that works well at his job. He keeps his job. simply enough, but his work didn’t affect his being hired. What about the person that was lazy? He was fired. He lost his job. Did his laziness affect his being hired? No, but it did affect his keeping his job.
Replace hire with saved… and its the same set up.
Did his works save him? no Grace alone did that (eph2:8)
Are his works necessary though once he is saved? Yes (James 2)
so, to get into heaven. you must be faithful, and obedient.
Does this mean it is a works centric salvation though? No. your works didn’t effect you being saved.
this understanding only creates issues with OSAS. They still will not agree because their understanding is once you are saved, you cant do anything to loose it. But to a non-OSAS protestants, this analogy should help
your other statement
I can’t speak for everyone… but yes… because the dictionary and the bible do not have opposing understandings of the word Faith
Faith is simply the belief in something not yet seen.
nothing more, nothing less. Faith doesn’t force people to do works. Faith isn’t complicate. However, when using the complicated definition of Faith, you can accidentally distort your understanding if the bible because a word means something different to you than the authors intended. Reading Hebrews 11 with the dictionary understanding of the word faith gives a different (and deeper) meaning than if it is a magical word that lets people magically know what they are suppose to do and will magically do it as has often been described to me by protestants.
Faith is simply the belief in something not yet seen. Saying it means more than that also violates th bible. Paul very explicitly warned us not to argue about words and the meaning of words for this will lead you to destruction. Faith means the belief in something not yet seen. If you think it means more, you distort the bible
Hope that helps
In Christ
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Brother Apophasis, you have to understand that there are three phases of salvation.
Not just one!
John Salza puts it well:
I Have Been Saved (past event)
Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why “hope” if salvation is a certainty?)
Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.
Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.
I Am Being Saved (present event)
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.
Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.
1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.
Will Be Saved (future event)
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.
Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?
1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.
2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.
Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.
James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I
V
VociMike
Guest
Nobody denies that faith is necessary for salvation. The issue at hand is whether faith alone is sufficient for salvation.
K
kaycee
Guest
Those who have been regenerated by God will obey. Obedience will follow salvation by Grace through Faith. Obeying and good works are the fruit that results from salvation, not to earn salvation.
Christians have been adopted as sons and daughters of God Thru Faith. We are not working to become children of God. We produce fruit because WE ARE Children of God.
F
Fidelis
Guest
Actually it is both the faith and obedience that saves.
I will answer this erroneous generalization with a generalization of my own: When a Protestant sees the word “faith” or “believe,” they think it means to solely to put one’s trust in the Jesus’ sacrifice and the promises of God. Nothing else is necessary. You can do good works if you feel like it it to get some unrequired extra points or “fruits,” but in practical terms once one has faith they can sit back and call in the rest of their Christian lives with no eternal consequences. Is that about right, practically speaking?
Catholics, on the other hand, see the word “faith” or “believe” and recognize that it not only encompasses the Protestant understanding (to put one’s trust in the Jesus’ sacrifice and the promises of God), but also living one’s life in obedience to God – what St. Paul calls "the obedience of faith in Romans 1 and 16. Thus, for Catholics, Jesus is both Saviour AND Lord. I and others in previous posts have given innumerable Scripture references to show this is the true biblical position.
V
VociMike
Guest
Why do you folks keep talking about earning salvation? Show me where the Catholic Church teaches that we can earn our salvation. It’s really rude to put words in the mouth of the Church.
The fact is, as you acknowledge, that for the vast majority of Christians, obedience and works of love are a necessary component of salvation. No works, no obedience, no salvation. And that is why the constant harping on faith-alone is misleading.
B
Bishopite
Guest
F
Fidelis
Guest
That’s right! If you are going to attack the Church’s teaching, at least show where the Church teaches what you are refuting, or else you are battling against straw-men and imaginary products of anti-Catholic polemnicists, not the actual Catholic teaching.
K
kaycee
Guest
Because the CC teaches that the works one must do increases infused “grace” where the soul actually attains heaven by its own merit.
If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God,** that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified,** by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).
F
Fidelis
Guest
:clapping: Very good! Now, rather that take that quote from Trent in isolation, view it in the context of what the Church teaches about the necessity of faith for salvation.
(Again) From the CCC:
So you see, a correct description of the Church’s teaching is that salvation is by faith and works through grace – not “earning” salvation as it is usually caricaturised by Protestants.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
You all will not hear is the problem. That is why I am divorcing myself from this topic. Take it the way you like it, I guess.
F
Fidelis
Guest
*I’m *guessing “You all will not hear” is another way of saying, “Me and the Protestant tradition and interpretation of this are right, which makes the Catholic position necessarily wrong, and since you won’t agree with me and I for my part refuse to acknowledge any possible iota of merit in the Catholic argument, I quit.”
So be it.
A
apophasis
Guest
Don’t need to. It’s blatantly intrinsic within all of Paul’s teachings:Rom. 3:30 "…since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.The determining principle by which God justifies is limited to “faith.” Hence, “faith alone.” You simply can’t get around it. And this limiting principle is addressed to the “circumcised” (Jews born under the Law) and the “uncircumcised” (Gentiles who were NEVER under the covenant of Law). The determining principle, the common denominator, by which God justifies ALL men (Jew and Gentile) is faith alone. Paul is extremely clear on this point. To reject it is to reject his gospel, his doctrinal teaching on salvation/justification which he delivered by letter to the church at Rome. He practically screams it out in Rom. 4:5:"BUT to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the (godly? NO!) UNGODLY, his ("works, NO!) FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.In respect to divine justification works by or through men, of any kind, are totally excluded. It is his faith alone that is reckoned to him as righteousness by God. You, according to your own free will, may reject this divine principle which is Scripturally taught as far back as Abraham who lived over 400 years before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai. But volitionally rejecting it will not change it. And according to Paul, preaching something other than faith comes with its own “anathema” (Gal. 1:6-10).
The subject in both Romans chapters three and four is divine justification, not the Law. Clearly he points out that this justification is not based on the covenant of Law or else Gentiles, as Gentiles, could never be justified before God, since Gentiles, as Gentiles, were never under the covenant of Law. This would also apply to Abraham who live over 400 years before the covenant of Law was even given to Israel. He points out that all the Law could do was impart the knowledge of sin, not life (Rom. 3:20). Hence, the Jew, under the Law, was not only a sinner by birth but now was to understand himself to be a transgressor of specific commandments. As Paul expresses elsewhere:Gal. 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.Since the Law could only impart knowledge of sin, and not life, the impartation of divine righteousness (justification) had to be through another principle altogether: FAITH. Paul concludes:Rom 4:16 "For this reason {it is} BY FAITH, in order that {it may be} in accordance with GRACE, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the FAITH (not works) of Abraham, who is the father of us all,"Paul takes us back to Abraham in his argument for Sola Fide:Gen. 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith in Him) to him as righteousness (justification)“You see, Fidelis, nothing’s changed in respect to divine justification since Abraham. God doesn’t change. That’s Paul’s whole point in Rom. 3 & 4. But because of Rome’s rejection of Paul’s teaching on the principle of sola fide for justification, his letter to the church at Rome has become his letter against the church at Rome.”…being justified as a gift by His grace THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."The work of redemption was Christ’s and Christ’s alone. And it is through this work that God justifies (Rom. 3:24). Hence it must be by faith alone.
Oh so logical, so simple. :extrahappy:
V
VociMike
Guest
No, it doesn’t say one attains heaven by one’s own merit. Sheesh.
Wow, look at that. It’s talking about, ahem, “one that is justified”. Justified people are already on the path to heaven, so they don’t need to earn heaven. One does not need to earn what has already been given. Sheesh.
O
OneForTruth
Guest
It is a waste of time…*I’m *guessing “You all will not hear” is another way of saying, “Me and the Protestant tradition and interpretation of this are right, which makes the Catholic position necessarily wrong, and since you won’t agree with me and I for my part refuse to acknowledge any possible iota of merit in the Catholic argument, I quit.”
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
The preversion continues…
F
Fidelis
Guest
Only if you start with the presupposition of Sola Fide can you pretend that the word “alone” must be assumed in Paul’s writings in regards to faith. Martin Luther at least had the nerve to try and slip it into his translation of Romans 3:28, before his fellow Deformers called him on it.So logical and simple that nobody in the Church for the 1500 years preceding Martin Luther’s invention of Sola Fide could figure it out?
BTW, there’s this bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you…
- Status