Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[guanophore]

Because the CC teaches that the works one must do increases infused “grace” where the soul actually attains heaven by its own merit.

This is just nonsense, kaycee, and self contradictory! If one participates in a sacrament (I am assuming this is the “works” of which you are speaking) and one thereby recieves or is infused with grace, then the soul attains more of heaven by that grace! Grace is the free gift of God, not somthing “merited”! But, if someone is standing there shouting “get your free gift here” and you don’t step up and take it, then you will end up going home without!

If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God,** **

we are talking about people who are already justified (saved), which means that the good works done are those prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (also gifts of God and not works of the flesh)
kaycee;2195942:

that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified,

by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ,

Again, the justified person (already saved) who does the good works that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them.

whose living member he is, **and does not truly merit **increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).

The believer (saved person) is a living member of Christ, and when said believer walks in the deeds that God has prepared for him before the foundation of the world, he will experience even more grace.

“The measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. 25 For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”
Mark 4:24-25

The justified merit eternal life because of Jesus work on the cross. Such persons demonstrate the good works of their father in heaven, and are rewarded!

Matt 6:2-4
3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

You all will not hear is the problem. That is why I am divorcing myself from this topic. Take it the way you like it, I guess.

We hear fine, we just disagree. Don’t you know that God hates divorce? I think I will take it the way Jesus taught it. thanks!

 

[apophasis]

Only if you start with the presupposition of Sola Fide can you pretend that the word “alone” must be assumed in Paul’s writings in regards to faith. Martin Luther at least had the nerve to try and slip it into his translation of Romans 3:28, before his fellow Deformers called him on it. So logical and simple that nobody in the Church for the 1500 years preceding Martin Luther’s invention of Sola Fide could figure it out?

Not true. As I have shown you, justification through faith alone has been taught Scipturally since Abraham’s day. That’s 2000 years before a church even existed in Rome. And Paul was teaching sola fide long before he even stepped on Italy’s soil. In fact, it was because of this glorious message that he was brought there in chains in the first place (ironically, having had put others in chains for the same reason). Men have tried to pervert and destroy this divine message ever since.

But as you can see, God would not allow it. And so, “Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” are alive, well and speaking out the truth to this very day (Gal. 3:29). :clapping: Because as God said to Jeremiah, “I am watching over My word to perform it” (Jer. 1:12). The beauty of the written Word is that men cannot change it. They can only ignore it.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness"

 

[6glargento]

well the way i see it, if we are really saved by faith alone as protestants teach, then all i have to do is believe in jesus and it really doesn’t matter whether or not i accept sola fide as a valid doctrine.

and if everyone has the authority to interpret the bible as protestants teach, then my interpretation that james 2:24 teaches against faith alone, is a valid interpretation and i am entitled to it and no one has the authority to tell me otherwiase becuase i am lead by the holy spirit.

 

[Bishopite]

Because the CC teaches that the works one must do increases infused “grace” where the soul actually attains heaven by its own merit.

What you don’t either know or fail to point out is that when Trent is speaking of “merit” it is using the Latin word “meritum” which means “reward” NOT strict earning, so that when we cooperate with God’s infused grace, we “merit” are (rewarded) with more grace. Grace that is in quantity not in quality of the grace.

If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God,** that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified,**

 

[Bishopite]

Not true. As I have shown you, justification through faith alone

has been taught Scipturally since Abraham’s day.

False. Abraham was NOT justified by faith alone. Never mind that you ingore James 2:20-22 where is explicitly says Abraham was justified by faith and doing good works, but look at the book of Genesis where Abraham didn’t just believe but acted upon his belief and obeyed God through doing good, starting in Gen 12:1-4 where he left Haran with Lot in obedience. Obedience means to do something in cooperation with God’s grace.

That’s 2000 years before a church even existed in Rome. And Paul was teaching sola fide

 

[nerfherder]

False. Abraham was NOT justified by faith alone. Paul is saying work without faith is dead.

 

[quasimodo]

It all come to this …

If a man claims to have faith but has no deeds, can such faith save him? Faith without works is dead. Is a dead faith salvific?

We pursue the questions because Truth matters. There is only one Truth. The Truth is a Someone not a something.

 

[heisenburg]

As I have shown you, justification through faith alone has been taught Scripturally since Abraham’s day

I am 100% certain that the Jewish people would say you are wrong in this matter. I investigated this issue once because I knew people believe Faith Alone was always taught. It became very evident very quick from practicing Jews that Faith Alone has never been taught in Judaism. A lot of them laughed at the idea.

If you really believe that, go talk to practicing Jews. Also, even Paul said that those under the law (Jewish law) where condemned by the law. He was talking about the Jews and people that adhere to Judism. If it is Faith Alone, why would Paul even need to mention anything about the Law.

Again. Faith Alone is not or has never been taught by Judaism. If you do not believe me, Ask practicing Jews yourself

In Christ

 

[apophasis]

I am 100% certain that the Jewish people would say you are wrong in this matter. I investigated this issue once because I knew people believe Faith Alone was always taught. It became very evident very quick from practicing Jews that Faith Alone has never been taught in Judaism. A lot of them laughed at the idea.

If you really believe that, go talk to practicing Jews. Also, even Paul said that those under the law (Jewish law) where condemned by the law. He was talking about the Jews and people that adhere to Judism. If it is Faith Alone, why would Paul even need to mention anything about the Law.

Again. Faith Alone is not or has never been taught by Judaism. If you do not believe me, Ask practicing Jews yourself

In Christ

Can you show me one place in the Law of Moses where it teaches God justifies based on obedience to that Law?Rom 9:30 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

 

[apophasis]

Bishopite;2198871:

You know this argument will not be resolved.

The fact that a Catholic Christian mistrusts a protestant interpretation or practice does not make it wrong. The fact that a protestant Christian cannot accept certain interpretations and rituals of the CC does not mean that they are invalid or wrong. On the whole, why not get on with being Christian? There lies the One Absolute Truth that was given to humanity.

Or is the bottom line the fact that we do not know what it means to be a Christian? The fact that we are not sure, after 2000 years, what we are to do to obtain salvation, implies that we do not know what it is that defines a follower of Christ.

For me, that is a hard thought.

In the end, despite the work of the Catholic Church in defining the Absolute Truth as handed on from Christ, perhaps it is each individual who makes his or her own choice about believing. That too is a hard thought, and perhaps anarchic.

You must ignore this if it takes you off-topic, but the topic has been running without making too much headway sadly.

Salvation is not based on personal opinion or man’s imagination, but Divine Revelation. There’s no mystery to salvation. It’s the simplicity of it that causes men to stumble. They want God to recognize their own righteousness rather than Christ’s alone.2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, human actions can help to perfect* faith*, but not even James states that it perfects justificaton which is divinely reckoned" based on faith. And the content of that faith by which God reckons righteousness is the redemptive work of His Son, not ours.

This is greatly encouraging Apo! Perhaps we are finding that our perspectives are not so divergent as they may have seemed at first? I read in this thread that you did not agree with the “cooperation” concept? Perhaps you can find a place for it in the area of “perfecting” faith, if not for justification?

2 Peter 1:3-11
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which **he has granted to us **his precious and very great promises, that through these **you may **escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, **they keep you **from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and **has forgotten **that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for **if you do **this you will never fall; "

 

[guanophore]

Those who have been regenerated by God will obey. Obedience will follow salvation by Grace through Faith. Obeying and good works are the fruit that results from salvation, not to earn salvation.

Christians have been adopted as sons and daughters of God Thru Faith. We are not working to become children of God. We produce fruit because WE ARE Children of God.

An interesting commentary on 2 Peter 1:10

The word “sure,” means firm, steadfast, secure, bebaian (NT:949). Here the reference must be to “themselves;” that is, they were so to act as to make it certain to themselves that they had been chosen, and were truly called into the kingdom of God. It cannot refer to God, for no act of theirs could make it more certain on his part, if they had been actually chosen to eternal life. Still, God everywhere treats men as moral agents; and what may be absolutely certain in his mind from the mere purpose that it “shall” be so, is to be made certain to us only by evidence, and in the free exercise of our own powers. The meaning here is, that they were to obtain such evidences of personal piety as to put the question whether they were “called” and “chosen,” so far as their own minds were concerned, to rest; or so as to have undoubted evidence on this point. The Syriac, the Vulgate, and some Greek manuscripts, insert here the expression “by your good works;” that is, they were to make their calling sure “by” their good works, or by holy living.
(from Barnes’ Notes, Copyright (c) 1997)

 

[apophasis]

This is greatly encouraging Apo! Perhaps we are finding that our perspectives are not so divergent as they may have seemed at first? I read in this thread that you did not agree with the “cooperation” concept? Perhaps you can find a place for it in the area of “perfecting” faith, if not for justification?

To “perfect” faith means to cause one’s faith to mature. From Gen. 15:6 on Abraham exercised his personal faith “in the Lord” to the point that by the time God tested him with the sacrifice of Isaac, his faith “in the Lord” had greatly matured. He trusted Him completely - even to raise his only son from the dead (a type of Christ).

But it was his faith “in the Lord” by which God justified him back in Gen. 15:6. It was not his justification that matured, but his faith “in the Lord.”

Catholicism begins with one’s trust (faith) in the church of Rome. It’s “infallible” authority, its hierarchy, its canon law and the power of its sacerdotal/sacramental system.

There lies the difference. In whom or what does one place his faith? This determines one’s salvation/justification.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Can you show me one place in the Law of Moses where it teaches God justifies based on obedience to that Law?

Only one place… Can’t be done.

You’ll have to look at all four gospels and then the rest of the new testament. Jesus was born under the law. He maintained (was obedient to the law) his entire life. We can all agree that Jesus was fully God, right? If obedience was not important, why then did Jesus, being God, maintain the law? God’s justification of the law comes from maintaining the law while he was among us.

 

[apophasis]

BTW, there’s this bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you…

You think my faith in the cross of Christ alone, the word (message/doctrine) of the cross to save is foolishness? Read the words of Paul regarding this:1 Cor. 1:17-25 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

nerfherder;2199377:

Salvation is not based on personal opinion or man’s imagination, but Divine Revelation. There’s no mystery to salvation

. It’s the simplicity of it that causes men to stumble. They want God to recognize their own righteousness rather than Christ’s alone.2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.

Agree with the verse…

Paul is speaking as a bishop of the Catholic Church here. Context is everything…

 

[apophasis]

Only one place… Can’t be done.

You’ll have to look at all four gospels and then the rest of the new testament. Jesus was born under the law. He maintained (was obedient to the law) his entire life. We can all agree that Jesus was fully God, right? If obedience was not important, why then did Jesus, being God, maintain the law?

You answered it yourself - because He was born A JEW, "born under the Law:"Gal. 4:4-5 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."As a Man, born under the Law (a Jew) He fulfilled it (Matt. 5:17). Yet He Himself is the "end of the Law:"Rom. 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

God’s justification of the law comes from maintaining the law while he was among us.

From where do you get the idea that God needed to justify the Law? It wasn’t Christ’s perfect obedience to the Law that saves (it demonstrated Him to be God’s unblemished Lamb), it was His obedience to death on a cross, His substitutionary death.

 

[guanophore]

Great to see you posting nerf!
On the whole, why not get on with being Christian? There lies the One Absolute Truth that was given to humanity.

Or is the bottom line the fact that we do not know what it means to be a Christian? The fact that we are not sure, after 2000 years, what we are to do to obtain salvation, implies that we do not know what it is that defines a follower of Christ.

I think you hit this nail right on the head, nerf. It really is all about identity, who we are in Christ. I say that because it is not possible to "get on with the business’ if one does not have this foundation.

“9 But **you are **a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, **that you may **declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
1 Peter 2:9

The Apostles teach us that we ARE, that we MAY. Our "doings " (work, fruit or whatever you call it) emanates our of our understanding of who we ARE. If we don’t understand our right relationship to God, then we will not understand our right relationship with others, or ourselves, and our “work” will be unfruitful, and will not glorify the father.

In the end, despite the work of the Catholic Church in defining the Absolute Truth as handed on from Christ, perhaps it is each individual who makes his or her own choice about believing. That too is a hard thought, and perhaps anarchic.

It is a hard thought, verily, but a Catholic one.
It is the duty of the Church to proclaim the gospel, and for those who hear, to decide - make a choice about believing.

Just as in Jesus’ day, some people will reject the purpose (salvation) of God for themselves:

“30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves,” Luke 7:30

This is one of the main principles upon which the Catholic church rejects the doctrine of predestination. Catholicism teaches that people must make an individual choice, to respond, and then to cooperate with God’s grace.

You must ignore this if it takes you off-topic, but the topic has been running without making too much headway sadly.

It was great headway for me to see Apophasis agree that good works can perfect faith. If he said that before, I missed it!

 

[guanophore]

Catholicism begins with one’s trust (faith) in the church of Rome. It’s “infallible” authority, its hierarchy, its canon law and the power of its sacerdotal/sacramental system.

There lies the difference. In whom or what does one place his faith? This determines one’s salvation/justification.

This is an absurd statement, apophasis. Catholicism does not begin with trust in the Church of Rome! It begins with Jesus, walks with Jesus, and ends with Jesus. You can see this most clearly when you study the schism of the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox. They do not recognize the primacy of Rome either, but the teachings on salvation are the same.

Also, the power inherint in the elements pecular to the Roman Church, infallible authority, apostolic succession, canon law, and the power of the sacraments don’t reside in the practices themselves, but in the power of the HS. I understand that you do not recognize the grace of God that emanates from these elements, and therefore, you think it idoes not exist.

I agree with you that the One in whom one puts one’s faith is what determines salvation.

 

[heisenburg]

Can you show me one place in the Law of Moses where it teaches God justifies based on obedience to that Law?

Pretty easy…

Leviticus 26:14-46 talks specifically about being disobedient to the law and what happens.

Remember though you are saying what the Jewish people teach in regards to this specific issue. It would be more advisable to speak to Jews than to any Christian of any denomination. Go to the source since you are in essence talking about Jewish belief.
I know they don’t teach Faith alone, but don’t take my word for it, go talk to them and find out for yourself

But yes, In Judiasm, there is a consequence to being disobedient to the law.

In Christ