Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[mikeledes]

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

And I would also like to add that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But this does not mean that those in Christ will never fall into condemnation. Let me give you an example:

There is no dying of hypothermia for those who are in Brazil

The assumption, however, is that the person remains in Brazil. A persom must be in Christ until end in order never to fall into condemnation. Jesus Himself said:

John 8:51
**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Fidelis]

This is not true, Fidelis. Apophasis has completely demonstrated that this doctrine CAN and IS found in the bible! Just like justification for slavery, subjugation of women, and a number of other things, it can be done if one will only focus exclusively on certain verses, and find reasons how other verses can be minimized or discounted.

I stand corrected, guanophore!

 

[clmowry]

Try reading it again. Where exactly does it say faith plus works for salvation?

I think your are reading your already formed conclusion into a text that simply says no such thing.

You can only conclude 3 and 4 from 2005. 1 and 2 you’ve put there yourself.

Chuck

But then (2005) it becomes slightly inarticulate (for me) but I read it to mean, clearly: (1) we have faith, plus (2) our works for salvation; (3) by our fruits shall we be known as followers of Christ; and (4) contemplation of God’s mercy will sustain us and empower us in our life in Christ.

Quote:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
That’s me, done and cooked.

 

[guanophore]

Does the Catholic Church teach “works salvation”?

This is an absurd question. There is NO SUCH THING as works salvation. Anyone teaching it must have made it up in their head.

 

[guanophore]

And yet the children of God disobey when they sin. Or does the Child of God live a sin free life after justification? The children of God do not become automatons. The fact that they can sin and “grieve” the Holy Spirit clearly points to the fact a Christian can resist doing the will of God at times.

God Bless,
Michael

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Ok, kaycee. What are you saying here? You don’t disagree wtih mikeledes, do you, that Christians can sin, and that sinning grieves God?

 

[mikeledes]

Here are some verses that clearly show that a Christian can fail to persevere and fall into condemnation. Please note how the inspired author includes himself by using WE:

Hebrews 2:1-3

**1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, **

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

Note: There can be no “renew” and “again” if there was no repentance the first time around.

Hebrews 10:26-29

**26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? **

Hebrews 13:25

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Note: He is directing this warning to Christians and includes himself (i.e. we). If there is no danger of falling into condemnation, than this warning would make no sense.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

And yet these verses still stand.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

And I would also like to add that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But this does not mean that those in Christ will never fall into condemnation.

Then you dont understand the verse and the clear implication!

Who is doing the work here?

“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

“Who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(1 Corinthians 1:8)

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

Are we given conditional life? temporary life? NO! We are given as a gift, Eternal Life! Eternal Life with a possible expiration date is NOT Eternal by definition. For it to be Eternal, by definition it MUST NEVER END for any reason.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:27-29)

Are you greater than the Father and CAN snatch yourself out of the Fathers hand?

When we are regenerated by God we become a new creation!

How can we possibly un become a new creation? :extrahappy:

Praise the Eternal God Forever!

 

[nerfherder]

Try reading it again. Where exactly does it say faith plus works for salvation?

I think your are reading your already formed conclusion into a text that simply says no such thing.

You can only conclude 3 and 4 from 2005. 1 and 2 you’ve put there yourself.

Chuck

Nope, sorry.

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

That is: I read it to mean, clearly: (1) we have faith, plus (2) our works for salvation; (3) by our fruits shall we be known as followers of Christ; and (4) contemplation of God’s mercy will sustain us and empower us in our life in Christ.

1 = grace cannot be known except by faith
2 = we cannot rely on our feelings or our works
3 = you will know them by their fruits
4 = reflection on God’s blessings

Finish 'n klaar.

 

[mikeledes]

Then you dont understand the verse and the clear implication!

Who is doing the work here?

“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

“Who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(1 Corinthians 1:8)

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

Are we given conditional life? temporary life? NO! We are given as a gift, Eternal Life! Eternal Life with a possible expiration date is NOT Eternal by definition. For it to be Eternal, by definition it MUST NEVER END for any reason.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:27-29)

Are you greater than the Father and CAN snatch yourself out of the Fathers hand?

When we are regenerated by God we become a new creation!

How can we possibly un become a new creation? :extrahappy:

Praise the Eternal God Forever!

Don’t get too excited Kaycee! There are verses that contracdict the notion that all of the justified will peresevere to the end. Such as the verses in Hebrews, etc. :extrahappy:

Praise and Glory to Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ!

God bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

Ok, kaycee. What are you saying here? You don’t disagree wtih mikeledes, do you, that Christians can sin, and that sinning grieves God?

Certainly it gieves God. What does that have to do with the Gift of Eternal Life?

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

We were freely given salvation when we were still wretched sinners! We now have to work to keep it as if we could?

All our sins have already been dealt with on the Cross!

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

We obey out of love and our new nature for what He has given us as a GIFT, NOT to GET or KEEP eternal life. Working to keep a GIFT, turns the gift into a payment! Thats not Grace (unmerited favor).

 

[mikeledes]

Certainly it gieves God. What does that have to do with the Gift of Eternal Life?

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

We were freely given salvation when we were still wretched sinners! We now have to work to keep it as if we could?

All our sins have already been dealt with on the Cross!

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”

We obey out of love and our new nature for what He has given us as a GIFT, NOT to GET or KEEP eternal life. Working to keep a GIFT, turns the gift into a payment! Thats not Grace (unmerited favor).

John 8:51

** 51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **

Revelation 2:26

**26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; **

As Jesus said, he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

nerfherder;2199377:

Salvation is not based on personal opinion or man’s imagination, but Divine Revelation. There’s no mystery to salvation

. It’s the simplicity of it that causes men to stumble. They want God to recognize their own righteousness rather than Christ’s alone.2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.

Right, salvation is not based on a persons personal opinion, but that’s what you are doing, being you affirm sola scriptura; anyones “opinion” which is subjective counts as valid in your position. And you keep taking the same false presumptive irrational and unreasonable approach that Catholicism somehow teaches a false gospel. You apparently don’t read history for it proves that the church that has always been around as the authoritative church is the Catholic church for she is the one who received and has transmitted divine revelation; I’m afraid that you are the one who is being deceived.

 

[runandsew]

We are saved by God’s grace alone, and our response to that grace is faith working in love.

It is not by faith alone, and it is not by love alone, and we can not do it on our own.

We all know that we need faith to be saved, but that faith must be accompanied with love.

We will not only be judged by our commission of sins, but also by our omission

Matthew 19:16-17
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

Mark 12:28-31
And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

John 15:12-14
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[kaycee]

John 8:51

** 51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word **he will never see death."

Revelation 2:26

26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

As Jesus said, he who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Offcourse they will perservere, because its God doing the work. Those Chosen by God Will persevere and will keep His Word!

**“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

“Who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(1 Corinthians 1:8) **

 

[Bishopite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bishopite

 

[mikeledes]

Offcourse they will perservere, because its God doing the work. Those Chosen by God Will persevere and will keep His Word!

**“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

“Who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(1 Corinthians 1:8) **

Really? then what happened in the following case:

Ezekiel 33:13, 18

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.**

Note that God is talking about the “righteous.” He did not say the “righteous in their own estimation” or the “externally righteous”, but those who are righteous before His sight. If they were not righteous in His sight, He would not call them “righteous.”

Hebrews 13:25

**25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. **

Note that the inspired author includes himself (i.e. “we”). If it were not possible, then his warning would be pointless. God will not abandon His work in us, but we can abandon Him.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

Really? then what happened in the following case:

Ezekiel 33:13, 18

**13"When I say to the righteous **he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.

Apparently trusting in your own righteousness is a bad thing

You think God is really saying this man is righteous in and of himself and earns heaven on his own merit?

You have presented insurmountable theological problems for yourself.

Note that God is talking about the “righteous.” He did not say the “righteous in their own estimation” or the “externally righteous”, but those who are righteous before His sight. If they were not righteous in His sight, He would not call them “righteous.”

I dont believe this is Sound Catholic theology. Sounds like pelagianism.

Hebrews 13:25
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Note that the inspired author includes himself (i.e. “we”). ** If it were not possible, then his warning would be pointless.** God will not abandon His work in us, but we can abandon Him.

God Bless,
Michael

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Give that a try, let me know how that’s workin out for you.

 

[mikeledes]

Apparently trusting in your own righteousness is a bad thing

You think God is really saying this man is righteous in and of himself and earns heaven on his own merit?

You have presented insurmountable theological problems for yourself.

I dont believe this is Sound Catholic theology. Sounds like pelagianism.

Please do not add to what I have said. The passage clearly states that the righteous can turn away from righteousness. Obviously, the “righteousness” being referred to is the righteousness that comes from God. Otherwise, he would not be righteous. You said that those God have chosen will persevere in doing His will. In the case of the righteous mentioned in the verses I gave you, they did not.

**“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” **
Give that a try, let me know how that’s workin out for you.

And I respond with the following:

Phillipians 3:12-14

**12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Here are some verses that clearly show that a Christian can fail to persevere and fall into condemnation. Please note how the inspired author includes himself by using WE:

Hebrews 2:1-3

1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened **and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Note: There can be no “renew” and “again” if there was no repentance the first time around.

Hebrews 10:26-29

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 13:25

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Note: He is directing this warning to Christians and includes himself (i.e. we). If there is no danger of falling into condemnation, than this warning would make no sense.

God Bless,
Michael

And yet these verses also still stand.

God Bless,
Michael