Was Jesus a heretic for teaching works salvation?

[guanophore]

Then you dont understand the verse and the clear implication! Who is doing the work here?

It is a cooperative work, that means God’s grace works together with the faith of the person to produce salvation. The first step is for a person to “believe in the one who was sent”. In order for the message to be saving, it must meet with faith in the hearer:

Heb 4:2-3
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest,"

The exercise of faith is the responsibility of the hearer. As Jesus ften pointed out “your faith has healed you”.

“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

“Who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:8)

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

the failure of a person to accept the saving grace of God, or the willful rejection of it does not mean His arm is too short. Nor does it imply that His gift or call are null and void.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) Are we given conditional life? temporary life? NO! We are given as a gift, Eternal Life! Eternal Life with a possible expiration date is NOT Eternal by definition. For it to be Eternal, by definition it MUST NEVER END for any reason.

The Life does not end, but our participation in it can. think of eternal life as a river. We have an invitation to live in it, but once entering, we can also get out.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:27-29)

Are you greater than the Father and CAN snatch yourself out of the Fathers hand?

A person can willfully chose to get out. God is not going to hold a person against their will.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) When we are regenerated by God we become a new creation!

How can we possibly un become a new creation? :extrahappy:

Praise the Eternal God Forever!

I don’t think you can, because scripture clearly teaches about a person that falls away “his last state is worse than his first”, and that it would be better for that man never to have been born! Pretty harsh,but those are the facts!

(Don’t you think it grieves God when Christians sin?)

Certainly it gieves God. What does that have to do with the Gift of Eternal Life?

Sin separates us from God.

We were freely given salvation when we were still wretched sinners! We now have to work to keep it as if we could?

I think maybe you are misunderstand the teaching about perseverance. When we “work to keep it” it is not as though we are working of ourselves, by the flesh.

All our sins have already been dealt with on the Cross!

Yes, but how does one APPLY the saving work of Christ to himself? Clearly not all for whom Christ died enter eternal life.

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!"

You have already agreed that when a Christian sins, it grieves God. So, are you now saying it is not right for us to go on in sin?
What happens when a person does sin? How is one to keep that sin from separating him from God?

We obey out of love and our new nature for what He has given us as a GIFT, NOT to GET or KEEP eternal life.  Working to keep a GIFT, turns the gift into a payment!  Thats not Grace (unmerited favor).

This is faulty logic. If my friend gives me his dog because he is moving out of state, and my new dog has the tendency to run away, especially since he is looking for his old pal and is unfamiliar with his new surroundings, it is not “payment” for me to make a nice place for him to live, watch him all the time, and keep him restrained when necessary.

Such is the sin nature, it is still at work, even though the Gift of Grace has been given.

 

[mikeledes]

You forgot to add these verses:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

** 35’FOR** I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by PERSEVERANCE in doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

God Bless,
Michael

I reinforce the above with the following verses:

John 8:51 (NASB)

**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **

1 John 2:17 (NASB)

17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Revelation 2:26

26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

And yet these verses still stand. The faith that will ultimately save is the faith that does not cease to work through love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It is a cooperative work, that means God’s grace works together with the faith of the person to produce salvation. The first step is for a person to “believe in the one who was sent”. In order for the message to be saving, it must meet with faith in the hearer:

Heb 4:2-3
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest,"

The exercise of faith is the responsibility of the hearer. As Jesus ften pointed out “your faith has healed you”.

the failure of a person to accept the saving grace of God, or the willful rejection of it does not mean His arm is too short. Nor does it imply that His gift or call are null and void.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) Are we given conditional life? temporary life? NO! We are given as a gift, Eternal Life! Eternal Life with a possible expiration date is NOT Eternal by definition. For it to be Eternal, by definition it MUST NEVER END for any reason.

The Life does not end, but our participation in it can. think of eternal life as a river. We have an invitation to live in it, but once entering, we can also get out.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:27-29)

Are you greater than the Father and CAN snatch yourself out of the Fathers hand?

A person can willfully chose to get out. God is not going to hold a person against their will.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) When we are regenerated by God we become a new creation!

How can we possibly un become a new creation? :extrahappy:

Praise the Eternal God Forever!

I don’t think you can, because scripture clearly teaches about a person that falls away “his last state is worse than his first”, and that it would be better for that man never to have been born! Pretty harsh,but those are the facts!

No one can snatch us out of God’s hands. We can chose to leave. The verses in Hebrews clearly contradicts OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[down_under]

This is not true, Fidelis. Apophasis has completely demonstrated that this doctrine CAN and IS found in the bible! Just like justification for slavery, subjugation of women, and a number of other things, it can be done if one will only focus exclusively on certain verses, and find reasons how other verses can be minimized or discounted.

You may claim to find it in the bible. And you have your versus to back it up I see. You however cannot find it in history.
No one found it in the bible for the first 1500 years. No one who knew christ found it in there bibles. Oh yea thats right they did not have bibles. Well no one who was dicipled by the diciples found it in there bibiles. oh yea the did not have a bible either. well no one in the first 1500 years bothered to mention it to us. So how can you think you have got it right after all this time if we know that the apostles did not teach this, EVER. History bears this out.

 

[mikeledes]

Please do not add to what I have said. The passage clearly states that the righteous can turn away from righteousness. Obviously, the “righteousness” being referred to is the righteousness that comes from God. Otherwise, he would not be righteous. You said that those God have chosen will persevere in doing His will. In the case of the righteous mentioned in the verses I gave you, they did not.

And I respond with the following:

Phillipians 3:12-14

12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

God Bless,
Michael

And I would like to add to this kaycee that how wonderful is our God that even when I fail to live up to my call to holiness as a Christian, He will forgive me if I repent:

1 John 1:9

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God bless,
Michael

 

[down_under]

Romans 4 and related passages are about how we are freed from sin and the condemnation due to our sin and become righteous before God. The Law was absolutely incapable of freeing us from the eternal debt of sin and hence the necessity of Christ.

Once we have been justified, we are transferred from being under the Law of Moses to being under the Law of Christ. And the love of Christ is to love one another. The Law of Christ is the perfection and fulfillment of the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant)By this “perfect law, the law of liberty” (James 1:25) we shall be judged:

James 2:12
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

We clearly see this in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and the goats are judged on the basis on how much they have loved. Of course, this ability to love is itself a free gift of God. But this gift must be activated in the life of the Christian in order to fulfill the Law of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

congradulations you just walked in the back door of the catholic church. You just danced the long way around but in the end said that we need both faith and works. This is what we are trying to say. You need christs love. Without being shown how to love we are incapable of it. Grace in the holy spirit is a freely given gift that we cannot merit. We need it or we cannot go to heaven. At the same time it is not enough. We must “make up in our bodies what is lacking in the sufferings of christ” We must participate in salvation with our actions. We are judged on how much we have loved. On what we did with what we were given. We must have both faith and works. You may have come the long way around, but you just said that very thing. And provided scripture to back it up.

 

[mikeledes]

congradulations you just walked in the back door of the catholic church. You just danced the long way around but in the end said that we need both faith and works. This is what we are trying to say. You need christs love. Without being shown how to love we are incapable of it. Grace in the holy spirit is a freely given gift that we cannot merit. We need it or we cannot go to heaven. At the same time it is not enough. We must “make up in our bodies what is lacking in the sufferings of christ” We must participate in salvation with our actions. We are judged on how much we have loved. On what we did with what we were given. We must have both faith and works. You may have come the long way around, but you just said that very thing. And provided scripture to back it up.

Just in case you didn’t know, I’m Catholic. I don’t think a Protestant would have an image of Saint Michael in his signature.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

No one can snatch us out of God’s hands. We can chose to leave. The verses in Hebrews clearly contradicts OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

Sounds like your stronger that God.

comments on Heb 6 gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Sounds like your stronger that God.

comments on Heb 6 gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Im with you on this Kaycee:thumbsup: I should be clear-I mean on your biblical beliefs

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

This is an example of my husband I am praying for his salvation. There is still hope as long as he is alive. I pray for God not to take him until he is saved.

 

[clmowry]

Actually your re-read / re-statement is much more accurate.

I don’t disagree with your new 1, 2, 3 and 4…

This is in fact what 2005 says.

But its not what you said the first time you misinterpeted the paragraph.

Chuck

Nope, sorry.

1 = grace cannot be known except by faith
2 = we cannot rely on our feelings or our works
3 = you will know them by their fruits
4 = reflection on God’s blessings

Finish 'n klaar.

 

[nerfherder]

Actually your re-read / re-statement is much more accurate.

I don’t disagree with your new 1, 2, 3 and 4…

This is in fact what 2005 says.

But its not what you said the first time you misinterpeted the paragraph.

Chuck

My second iteration is exactly the same as the first! The words are the same except put out in easier form for easier understanding.

Faith + works + being known as a Christian by works and faith + being sustained by contemplation of God’s mercies were there both times.

Question is, do enough people agree with this so that we can move onto the question of whether Jesus was a heretic for preaching salvation through works? Assuming we are all chosen by God at birth as His children, we all have in return the potential for faith. Assuming faith we work in His name as Christians. (No man cometh unto the Father but by me).

(The problem of moral non-Christians is big for me here: they are chosen by God; many do outsstanding work for humanity - but not in His name. Does that mean they are damned to hell?)

Now, what about the ‘heresy’ of Christ? Christ sets up the rules. How can he possibly be heterdox?

 

[Bishopite]

[nerfherder;2199377]

You know this argument will not be resolved.

If we Catholics lay down and say nothing to defend 2000 years of truth then what kind of Christians are we?

The fact that a Catholic Christian mistrusts a protestant interpretation or practice does not make it wrong. The fact that a protestant Christian cannot accept certain interpretations and rituals of the CC does not mean that they are invalid or wrong. On the whole, why not get on with being Christian? There lies the One Absolute Truth that was given to humanity.

I used to be a Protestant for thirty-eight years and most of my family are Protestant (Baptist) and we do share in a unitive belief of the nucleus of Christian truth; that Christ died for our sins, we have to have faith and trust in Him and He will return again. Christ died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. Does that sound Catholic? Well,it is!

Yes, Jesus is absolute truth and it is an aboslute truth that He established a church (history attests to this fact) and that this church was and is Catholic. And I’m afraid that you perhaps are ingoring the very scriptures themselves that speak of having proper doctrine as Paul in his swan song in 2 Tim 3:14 “For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.”

Many on this forum create myths that have NO basis in the scriptures, they teach theologies never taught throughout Christian history, so it is imparitive that I and others defend the Catholic truth.

Or is the bottom line the fact that we do not know what it means to be a Christian? The fact that we are not sure, after 2000 years, what we are to do to obtain salvation, implies that we do not know what it is that defines a follower of Christ.

We Catholics know what it means to be a Christian, search the scriptures and Christian theology throughout the 2000 years and you will find the Catholic faith. If we rely on sola scriptura then I agree, we don’t know what it means to be a follower of Christ, for we merely make our “best guesses.” Christ gave us a shepherd and shepherd’s (Magisterium) to guide us into truth. 1 Tim 3:15…“the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.”

For me, that is a hard thought.

In the end, despite the work of the Catholic Church in defining the Absolute Truth as handed on from Christ, perhaps it is each individual who makes his or her own choice about believing. That too is a hard thought, and perhaps anarchic.

I agree, sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy. Who decides what “truths” we are to follow? This again begs the question, what IS a Christian?? I propose that if we look at the church which gives evidence unlike no other, evidence from scripture, history and reason that it is “the” church established by Christ to be the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15) therein lies the evidence. And this church, an authoritative church also I might add, authoritatively decided on the canon (what books were divinely inspired).

You must ignore this if it takes you off-topic, but the topic has been running without making too much headway sadly.

Not really. Those who propose faith alone ignore the Bible as a cohesive whole; they ignore the portions in James 2, John 14, Phil 2, Mt 25 and many many other places where Jesus exhorts us to do good works and they so faciley only cite portions of scripture that truly say we can’t save ourselves by our own personal works. Here is a set of verses that are the easiest to understand.

Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”

We Catholics agree that we can’t work our way to heaven and that our personal works done without God’s grace i.e., works of law or works of Torah don’t suffice to enter heaven.

Eph 2:10 “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

Yet one verse later Paul says we were created in Christ Jesus for “good works” that God prepared in advance that we should live in them; that we should DO good works, but the good works spoken about in verse 10 are done by those who are “created in Christ Jesus.” In other words after we receive Jesus Christ and are transformed by His grace, He gives us the works to do, which are actually His works in us. That’s why Protestants will often say…so-in-so is doing “God’s works.” For they know that works done like those in Mt 25:34-40 are done in love (Gal 5:6) and done unto Jesus.
The works done without Jesus for ones self glory are those in Mt 25:41-46 and those are the “works of law” that don’t justify as Paul says in Romans.

 

[dcdurel]

I have searched all these posts, and it seems like Protestants can’t give a reasonable answer.

Let me ask again. We know Jesus says we need faith. We know Jesus says we are saved by grace, which He merited by His death and ressurection. This is what the Church has always taught. The Church has never taught obedience alone.

NOW…

Jesus also says we need to obey God to enter heaven
Matthew 19:16-17
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

                                       **Luke 10:25-28**

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

Again, we all know Jesus did not say obedience alone.
We all know Jesus says we need faith, through which we receive grace.

Jesus also says we need to keep His commandments to enter heaven.

According to Protestants, this is called “works” salvation, and it is condemned by many Protestant denominations.

Thus, is Jesus considered to be a heretic, or is Jesus considered to be teaching heretically when He ALSO says we must keep His commandments to enter heaven?

What is the official or most common Protestant response to these direct, clear, explicit teachings by Jesus?

If the Catholic Church is being heretical for teaching that in addition to faith and grace, we also have to keep the commandments, is Jesus being heretical for teaching the exact same thing?

Is Jesus a heretic, yes or no?
Please answer.

I don’t want you to go off on the subjects of faith, and or grace. We all agree that we need faith and grace. We all agree that we can’t earn our salvation. We all agree that faith is the beginning of salvation. We all agree that we are saved by grace, through faith.
Jesus ALSO teaches we need to obey His commandments to enter heaven. Thus, according to Protestantism is Jesus a heretic?

Just answer the question. Can any Protestant give a straight answer?

 

[nerfherder]

If we Catholics lay down and say nothing to defend 2000 years of truth then what kind of Christians are we?

I am moving between Canadian Baptist and Catholic: please clarify which truth we Catholics are defending: I thought I read clearly it was faith + works. Sorry if I am being obtuse or naïve.

Christ died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. Does that sound Catholic? Well,it is!

I’ve just come from Mass and yes, those are the words.

Yes, Jesus is absolute truth and it is an absolute truth that He established a church (history attests to this fact) and that this church was and is Catholic. Paul said “For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.”

As I have written before, there is truth and there is truth. I am very aware that there are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others who have their truths, perhaps what they call their Absolute Truth. I do not have the right to deny them that by claiming that I have the only Absolute Truth through Christ.

It is impossible to argue - although I have done it - that the Catholic Church is not the one established by Christ. Any Catholic is absolutely certain that CC is the only one, unique, authoritative Church in Christendom. I reserve my opinion for now.

There is a mangement theory that states that five years is the maximum that an organisation can operate with any degree of policy coherence, and that after that, it changes. 2000 years of scholarship, practice, and schisms have meant many ‘reviews’ of the interpretation of doctrine and dogma by the Magisterium, and latterly by Vatican II. Another review is like sooner rather than later. Any great religion adapts or dies. I am not meaning huge adaptations. I am not meaning that I am a roaring relativist. But we do see differences of interpretation among Catholics on this forum; we do see major differences in focus and priorities between JP II and Benedict which will have ramifications for belief.

Many on this forum create myths that have NO basis in the scriptures.

I agree with you absolutely: assuming that you are scholarly, and have at your fingertips the correct interpretations issued by Vatican/Magisterium. Remember we are lay folk.

We Catholics know what it means to be a Christian, search the scriptures and Christian theology throughout the 2000 years and you will find the Catholic faith. If we rely on sola scriptura then I agree, we don’t know what it means to be a follower of Christ, for we merely make our “best guesses.” Christ gave us a shepherd and shepherd’s (Magisterium) to guide us into truth. 1 Tim 3:15…“the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Catholics are not the only ones who know what it means to be a Christian: one could argue moral non-Christians know and are loved of Christ. One reason for my joining the Catholic Church is because I believe it to be the repository of faith (doctrinal interpretations, scholarship, manuscripts and books etc etc) for Christendom. No other Christian denomination has this capacity. I am a historian: much of the truth of Christ’s mission would have been lost without the Catholic Church.

I agree, sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy. Who decides what “truths” we are to follow?

I did not say sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy. I did say that at the end of the day it is the individual - however well educated or not, however intelligent or not, however spiritual or not, however committed or not, whether cradled or converted - who will define the truth he or she follows. That is inevitable. At mass this morning, one was aware of the many mental landscapes among our community.

We Catholics agree that we can’t work our way to heaven and that our personal works done without God’s grace i.e., works of law or works of Torah don’t suffice to enter heaven. …The works done without Jesus for ones self glory are those in Mt 25:41-46 and those are the “works of law” that don’t justify as Paul says in Romans.

Yes, I think you have set out the reasoning well. As I understand CCC and the Bible taken together (and there are conflicting statements in the Bible), we cannot be saved without faith; when we have faith, the works we do, we do for God/Christ (No man cometh unto the Father but by me etc). I would not agree that works done without Jesus are for one self-glory: I am married to the most moral man I know, but he has renounced his Christian fellowship. At the same time, his Methodist background has helped me hugely in my spiritual quest. He is one of the moral non-Christians we must take time to look at more closely.

Thank you for your thoughtful insights.

Blessings

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Could someone define “Works”. Is it saying the Roseary, helping an old woman across the street…what would constitute a “work” ?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Sounds like your stronger that God.

comments on Heb 6 gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Did God grant you the gift of Free Will?

Yes or No?

If the answer is “yes” then your comment makes no since. And the tradition of OSAS falls away according to scripture. If the answer is no, then you’ve taken that power to grant free will away from God.

Which is it?

 

[nerfherder]

It seems like Protestants can’t give a reasonable answer.

You need to use words more carefully: commandments, obedience, works salvation used indiscriminately.

Summary: Jesus says we need faith - and obedience to God’s commandments. We must also love our neighbor exemplified by good works.

Right. CCC at 901 says we first need faith, and the rest follows: no salvation without faith. Protestants agree.

Keeping his ‘commandments’ is “works” salvation, condemned by many Protestant denominations.

Hold on, hold on here. Where does the concept of the protestant ethic, or the puritan work ethic come into this argument?
Catholics have been saying for donkeys’ years that they are the works salvation people:

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema. Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Canon I

CCC 901 and 2005 indicate this means that works without faith do not = salvation. Faith must come first. Likewise, protestants hold to works salvation, in two principal ways: predestination (Weber below) or response to God’s judgement (SRC below):

(SRC) The orthodox position on the Protestant Ethic maintains both of the following:

• God is in charge …of our lives. …We are completely dependent upon his decision to save us (predestination).
• Humans make responsible decisions. We will be judged by God for how we respond to him, and how we deal with each other (works).

Predestination does not mean that one lies around in a wheelbarrow, waiting for salvation to happen:

Weber believed the protestant ethic broke the hold of tradition while it encouraged men to apply themselves rationally to their work. … It was believed by followers of Calvin that one could not do good works … to assure your place in heaven. You were either among the “elect” …or you were not. However, wealth was taken as a sign that you were one of the God’s elect …The protestant ethic fostered a spirit of rigorous discipline, encouraging men to apply themselves rationally to acquire wealth.

My understanding is that - though we cannot be clear about ‘commandments’ -

Is Jesus a heretic … when He ALSO ?] says we must keep His commandments to enter heaven?

Note: you asked about ‘works salavation’. See note re ‘commandments’ above.There is no possibility whatsoever that Jesus, under any circumstances could be considered heterodox, regardless of his position on works salvation.

What is the most common Protestant response to the direct, clear, explicit teachings by Jesus?

No one here has set out the ‘direct, clear, explicit teachings of Jesus’ - what I think you refer to as his ‘commandments’. Re ‘works salvation’, both CC and mainline protestant denominations agree about faith, obedience and works required for salvation.

If the Catholic Church is being heretical for teaching we also have to keep the commandments ?], is Jesus being heretical for teaching the same thing?

This is tautally tautological. And it is not possible for Christ to be heterodox.

Is Jesus a heretic, yes or no? Please answer.

It is not possible for Christ to be heterodox.

We all agree that we can’t earn our salvation.

Yes; we must have faith first before we try to earn salvation by good works in God’s name. No faith: works alone will not get you into heaven.

We need to obey His commandments to enter heaven. According to Protestants is Jesus a heretic? … Can any Protestant give a straight answer?

This is aggravating. If you are talking about ‘works salvation’, and we assume the ‘commandments’ are those gleaned from all over the scriptures, the protestant answer must be:

• it is not possible for Christ to be a heretic or more correctly heterodox.
• we must obey his commandments while on Earth to the best of our ability, otherwise why be a Christian at all?
• both Catholics and protestant Christians believe, one way or the other, that eternal life is only open to those who (1) first have faith in God/Christ; (2) obey his commandments, set out in the scriptures; (3) live according to Christ’s example of compassion and love - by good works; and (4) undertake reflection, prayer and contemplation.

Get it? Got it? Good!

 

[mikeledes]

Sounds like your stronger that God.

comments on Heb 6 gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

** 37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.**

Sounds like Jerusalem was “stronger” than God (Jesus).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like your stronger that God.

comments on Heb 6 gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

God has sent His Word, through which we have been made partakers of divinity.

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken)…” John 10:34-36

"…those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come."Heb 6:4-5

We have been enlightened, become partakers, and tasted the divine power. Because of His spirit, we have free will. He has given us the power to choose. By virtue of our creation in the image and likeness of God, He has designed us so that we can exercise this power of choice.

" 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,Deut 30:19-20

Heaven and earth are witness that we have a choice. Of course, God wants us to choose life, but he will not forswear His creation. He wants children, not slaves. He wants us to love him and obey Him for the joy of it, not because we are coerced.

This is an example of my husband I am praying for his salvation. There is still hope as long as he is alive. I pray for God not to take him until he is saved.

I am curious what is your understanding of this teaching?

14 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy." 1 Cor 7:13-15

 

[kaycee]

Did God grant you the gift of Free Will?

Yes or No?

If the answer is “yes” then your comment makes no since. And the tradition of OSAS falls away according to scripture. If the answer is no, then you’ve taken that power to grant free will away from God.

Which is it?

YES, we have free will to do that whatever is within the realm of our nature as sinners.