Was Jesus actually abandoned by God in Mathew 27:46?

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mimi05

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I have heard before that in Mathew 27: 46 (And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) Jesus was actually saying the first few lines of Psalm 22, and just couldn’t get the entire verse out, due to being on a crucifix. But could He have meant it literally as well?

Jesus suffered and died for our salvation, bearing the punishment so that we don’t have to. And the primary pain in Hell is separation from God. So wouldn’t bearing the punishment include separation from God?
 
I would think so. Hell is a a place more horrorifying and dreadful than our mind can comprehend. And a world as such only exists without the presence of love itself, which is God. Same goes for heaven. Heaven is a unfathomably glorious and happy place and only such a place can exist with the full presence of God (love) itself. So yea, I would think the Lord would have experienced this hell on earth per se. And I think multiple times to. One of them being the agony in the garden of olives.
 
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No it was the price that had to be payed for the sins of man God held back for our sake. The silence from God is because of us.
 
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The Father did not actually abandon Christ. Rather Christ suffered the agony of being separated from His awareness of the Father. He was experiencing our punishments.
 
The words He pronounced in this verse are actually a close quote of Psalm 22:1. The full Psalm 22 is about the innocent sufferer who is vindicated in the end, so this must have made quite the impression in the Jews hearing it.
 
“Into Thy hands I commend my Spirit” Psalm 30:6.

He was completing the lineal connection with King David.

“Hosanna to the Son of David!” Matthew 21:9, 21:15

Remembering here that he has two natures: human and Divine. Since He cannot be separated from unity with Father and Spirit, His human nature can suffer and feel all that we do - and express as much.
 
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Isa_63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Psa_13:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?

Jesus is the true David, see Ezekiel.

Psa_30:7 LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.

Hab_1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Jesus was “made … to be sin for us” (II Cor 5:21).
 
Jesus experienced, through his human nature, the feeling of being abandoned by God in a time of great trouble and unfair, painful death.

Obviously he was never truly abandoned by God (especially since he WAS God), but, out of obedience to his Father in Heaven, he went through the whole human experience including birth, hard work, physical suffering, and death, and also the full range of human emotions, including grief, anger, sadness, and feeling abandoned by God.

As Dan_Defender said, the Jewish people hearing Jesus recite the beginning of Psalm 22 would have made the connection and understood the context of Jesus as innocent suffering victim who will be vindicated.
 
mimi05 said:
Jesus suffered and died for our salvation, bearing the punishment so that we don’t have to. And the primary pain in Hell is separation from God. So wouldn’t bearing the punishment include separation from God?
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“… so that we don’t have to.” I think these are dangerous words & an obstacle to spiritual maturity.

We are called to follow Jesus & that includes the cross. Jesus showed us the way.

Our salvation has been won by our Lord, but our sanctification requires our participation/cooperation to & through the cross.

Jesus can no more be separated from God than heat can be separated from the sun’s rays. Viewing this scene from view of the resurrection we know God never abandoned His Son.

Likewise God never abandoned Israel though there were several periods they thought he had. It’s like that “Footprints” poem. Those times Israel thought God abandoned them, He was actually carrying them.

God’s strength is made perfect in our weakness.
 
Dan_Defender said:
The words He pronounced in this verse are actually a close quote of Psalm 22:1. The full Psalm 22 is about the innocent sufferer who is vindicated in the end, so this must have made quite the impression in the Jews hearing it.
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Espcially after His resurrection. 😃 ✝️
 
Thank you to all of you who replied!!! I think I understand it now, that Jesus felt like he was abandoned by God, but actually wasn’t.
Justin_Mary said:
“… so that we don’t have to.” I think these are dangerous words & an obstacle to spiritual maturity.

We are called to follow Jesus & that includes the cross. Jesus showed us the way.

Our salvation has been won by our Lord, but our sanctification requires our participation/cooperation to & through the cross
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I agree with all that you said. What I meant before was that, though we still have to bear crosses and follow Jesus’s path to receive salvation, Jesus took the punishment for sin, which was eternal death. (of course, He rose again, but that is because He is God.) That gives us the chance to go to heaven, but not a guarantee. That part is up to us.
 
mimi05 said:
Jesus was actually saying the first few lines of Psalm 22, and just couldn’t get the entire verse out, due to being on a crucifix. But could He have meant it literally as well?
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In Jewish liturgy (as in Orthodox Christian liturgy), when you say the first line of a Psalm, it’s a signal to the rest of the Choir / chanters to begin chanting that Psalm.

Just last night I said at Vespers: “In the First Tone: Lord I call upon Thee, hear me” and then we chanted Psalm 141 (which starts “Lord I call upon Thee, hear me”) in its entirety in the first tone.

To this very day, it’s common for Jews (especially religious leaders) to memorize the whole book of Psalms and even the whole Torah. When Jesus said “My God My God, why hast Thou forsaken me”, he was saying it to the Pharisees and the other religious leaders gathered around who had had Him crucified, and they would’ve recalled the verses of that Psalm which spoke directly about Him. It’s as if He was saying, “You religious leaders, look, you should’ve recognized what you were doing”:

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
(etc.)
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
That’s what you’re implying.
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That’s what you are implying.

I’m saying Jesus showed us the way & asked us to follow him. I’ve never seen St Paul say we don’t have to bear our cross, in fact St Paul shows us how to follow Christ in every affliction.

Jesus died for our sins so we don’t have to pay for our sins. I’m not denying that. Only the idea that we don’t have to bear punishment for sins.

As St Paul says “my suffering fill what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ”
 
ReaderT said:
Psalm 22
…
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
(etc.)
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Oof, that’s too beautiful to leave off with an “etc”. 🙂
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord! May your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.
29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.
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Justin_Mary said:
As St Paul says “my suffering fill what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ”
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Which has to be understood in light of “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law.”

The key to unpacking Christ’s statement to take up our cross is to first understand that He himself died for us and in our place. So saying that He paid the price so we don’t have to is actually true to His teaching
 
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