Was Jesus crucified on a cross or a stake?

  • Thread starter Thread starter FirstCalled
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
From my understanding Crucifiction originaly came from a punishment for unrepentant reculsatrent slaves.
The victem had a beam tied across his shoulders and in this manner was beaten through the streets of the village with his master publicaly calling out his crimes, he was then hung on an upright stake by the means of the beam upon his shoulders and the towns people would humiliate him by throwing rotten food etc much like the old english stock’s. It did not always result in death as slaves were valuable property.
The Romans increased this form of punishment by having permanent scaffolds out side the city limits and after forcing the victem in the same manner through the streets with the beam across his shouders, would then nail them to the beam and scaffold, with there crimes placed on a sign above them, this became a capitol punishment with death being assured by the breaking of the legs.
These scaffolds were perminent fixtures outside Roman towns as a constant reminder to all peoples to obey Roman law much like Gallows were in England.
It is for this very reason that we should assume that Christ was crucified on the traditional T shaped cross rather than on a mere stake or pole. Golgotha was the place of execution by the occupying Romans. They would have almost certainly had permenant scaffolding set up for executions. The condemened would then be forced to carry the crossbeam out to the site of the scaffolds and there affixed to the crossbeam and lifted onto a stake.
 
Why do people who have the stigmata have the wounds on the hands not the wrists?

Also, isnt the place of the skull different to where the dome in Jerusalem is?
 
Also, isnt the place of the skull different to where the dome in Jerusalem is?
Are you asking about why there are at least two sites which are claimed to be the Golgotha of the gospels?

Simple answer for now: the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the spot claimed to be the site of Jesus’ execution and burial ever since Constantine built it in the 4th century. Gordon’s Calvary and the adjacent Garden Tomb was first proposed as an alternative spot in the 19th century and has become popular among some Christians, mainly Protestants.
 
I was reading one of those pamphlets about what the bible really teaches from the Mormons and it states in there that the proper greek word used in the bible for what Jesus was crucified was on a stake, one of their reasons for not carrying crosses, using it in worship, etc.
So does someone have a response to this?
Ezekiel 9:4. The “sign” in the original text was the Tau Hebrew character and at the time it was shaped like a lower case t.

It could not have been a capital T because there had to be some place to put the sign.

The idea of a stake is less than 100 years old, and it is primarily developed by JWs through a misunderstanding of the Greek word. It has been picked up by some of their close affiliates in an effort to disassociate themselves from Christianity and claim the cross is a pagan symbol, even though the only pagan symbol presented is a figure of a stick man meaning “life”.
 
How much did Jesus in His humanity hurt when “He bore our sins in His body”?

Sometimes I’ve tried to imagine what it would be like if I really could be in another person’s shoes for just one day if they started the day in a state of grace and then committed mortal sins.

As a human it would hurt feeling separation from God.

Now Jesus was Divine and His Divinity was IMPASSABLE–in other words–as God Jesus didn’t spiritually hurt by bearing our sins.

But in His humanity it did hurt bearing our sins.

I know it doesn’t feel good if I mortally sin–I feel so much better after my sins are absolved in confession.

Just imagine how it felt to Jesus in His humanity to bear ALL the sins that would ever be committed throughout ALL times–and that spiritual hurt in addition to His physical suffering on the Cross and His emotional suffering on the Cross in His humanity since only John of the disciples was there and above all knowing how much His Blessed Mother Mary was suffering with Him?

Anytime you ponder how much it hurt Jesus and how much He loved us–if that doesn’t bring a tear to your eyes then nothing will.

I will never be able to fathom the INFINITUDE of God’s love and mercy for us!

Lord have mercy on us!

Thank you Lord Jesus!
 
This is gonna be a repost (with perhaps a few alterations), and is only tangentially related to the discussion, but something which might shed light on what we’re talking about here.

What do we know about Jesus’ crucifixion?

And they are leading him out that they may crucify him; and they force a passerby – a certain Simon, a Cyrenaean coming from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus – to bear his cross, and they bring him to the place Golgotha (which is, being translated, ‘Skull Place’), and they were giving him myrrhed wine, but he did not take it. (Mark 15:20b-23)

Now as they came out, they came upon a Cyrenaean man named Simon; this one they forced to bear his cross, and having come to a place called Golgotha (which is called ‘Skull Place’), they gave him to drink wine mixed with gall, and having tasted it, he would not drink it. (Matthew 27:32-34)

And as they led him away, having seized Simon, a certain Cyrenaean, coming from the country, they put the cross on him to bear it behind Jesus. (Luke 23:26)

Then [Pilate] handed [Jesus] over to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus, and he went out, carrying the cross by himself, to the place called ‘Skull Place’, which in Hebrew is called Golgotha. (John 19:16-17)

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2073/vlcsnap2013040813h12m38.png

Crucifixion victims are usually spoken of as carrying their own crosses:

Palaestrio: Well, Sceledrus?
Sceledrus: I’m at this job. I so have ears; say what you want.
Pal.: (noting his position) You’ll soon have to trudge out beyond the gate in that attitude, I take it - arms outspread, with your gibbet patibulum] on your shoulders.
Scel.:
(still eyeing the door) So? What for?
  • Plautus, Miles Gloriosus (“The Braggart Warrior”) 358-360 (Act 2, 4)
Grumio: Oh, I bet the hangmen will hang you looking like a human sieve, the way they’ll prod you full of holes as they run you down the streets with your arms on a cross bar (patibulatum), once the old man gets back!
  • Plautus, Mostellaria (“The Haunted House”) 56-57
Chrysalus: When he shall have found out that he has made his journey thither to no purpose, and that we have misspent his gold, what will become of me after that? I’ faith, I think upon his arrival he’ll be changing my name, and at once be making me Crucisalus (cross-bearer) instead of Chrysalus (gold-bearer).
  • Plautus, Bacchides 362
Bearing my gibbet I shall be carried through the city; afterwards I shall be nailed to the cross.
  • Plautus, Carbonaria, fragment 2
Whoever will want to exact punishment on a male or female slave at private expense, as he [the owner] who wants the [punishment] to be inflicted, he [the contractor] exacts the punishment in in this manner: if he wants [him] to bring the patibulum to the cross, the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains and cords for the floggers and the floggers themselves. And anyone who will want to exact punishment will have to give four sesterces for each of the workers who bring the patibulum and for the floggers and also for the executioner.
 
(Continued)

And whereas every criminal who goes to execution must carry his own cross on his back, vice frames out of itself each instrument of its own punishment, cunning artisan that it is of a life of wretchedness containing with infamy a host of terrors, regrets, cruel passions, and never-ending anxieties.
  • Plutarch, Moralia 554
If a wrongdoer dreams that he is carrying one of the demons of the lower world, Pluto himself or Cerberus or some other one of those in Hades, it signifies that he will carry a cross. For the cross is like death and the man who is nailed to it carries it beforehand.
For a righteous man, it signifies that he will carry a wild animal and, if he feels oppressed by his burden, that he will be bitten and will die. If this is not the case, he will notice it, will cast it down, and will not perish. …
  • Artemidorus of Ephesus, Oneirocritica 2.56
At daybreak the estate manager went and informed his master of what had happened. Mithridates neither saw the prisoners nor listened to any defense but immediately ordered the sixteen cellmates to be crucified. They were brought forth bound together by their feet and necks, each of them bearing his own cross. The men in charge of the punishment added this gloomy spectacle to the strictly necessary penalty as an example to frighten other slaves. As he was led away with the others, Chaireas said nothing, but Polycharmos, when he picked up his cross, said, “Callirhoe, it’s your fault we’re going through this. You’re responsible for all our troubles.”
  • Chariton of Aphrodisias, Chaereas and Callirhoe 4.2.7
All these sources attest to the fact that the criminal who had received judgment by crucifixion could be forced to go to the place of execution as in a kind of public procession, usually while being forced to carry the patibulum (the horizontal crossbeam), all the while as soldiers, officials, or in the case of private crucifixions, the slave-owner or the assistants in charge, harm and torture the criminal both before and during the journey. (The Leges libitinariae is a bit ambiguous as to whether it is the slave or the workers who will carry the patibulum - operis singulis quae patibulum ferunt “each of the workers who bring the patibulum” - but this may refer to those who provide the equipment. It could be that the slave does carry the patibulum while the workers drive him or her on.) We can see that the gospels accord with this basic detail.

As for Simon of Cyrene, a number of modern scholars agree with the traditional harmonization: that Jesus was originally supposed to carry His own gibbet, but when it became clear that He could not do it for long, because He was somehow already quite weak, they had to draft a random stranger to bear it for Him. John’s omission of Simon is most likely due to his emphasis on Jesus being in complete control of His own fate (something seen in the Johannine passion account as a whole). Granted, we have no record in other ancient text attesting to vicarious cross-bearing, but the way the gospels tell the incident suggests that no additional explanation or information is needed.

All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on an area known as ‘(Place of a) Skull’ or Golgotha (Aramaic gûlgaltâ). John would later note that “the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city,” and Matthew and Mark both speak of passersby taunting Jesus. This might suggest that Jesus was crucified near or by the roadside, which accords with Pseudo-Quintilian said (Declamationes Minores 274):

When we crucify criminals the most frequented roads are chosen, where the greatest number of people can look and be seized by this fear. For every punishment has less to do with the offence than with the example.

Crucifixion was a deterrent designed to punish troublemakers and keep potential troublemakers in line and so was often held in public areas. One could also execute robbers in the spot where they have committed their crime (cf. **Digest 48.19.28.15 “That the sight may deter others from such crimes and be a comfort to the relatives and neighbors of those whom they have killed, the penalty is to be exacted in the place where the robbers did their murders.”)

Note that after Spartacus’ revolt, the surviving slaves who participated (Spartacus was not one of them; he probably died during the battle - at least his body was never found) were rounded up and crucified - all 6,000 of them - lining the Appian Way from Rome to Capua.

 
(Continued)

Now it was the third hour, and they crucified him, and the superscription of his charge was superscribed: “The king of the Judaeans.” (Mark 15:25-26)

And over his head they put the charge against him written: “This is Jesus, the king of the Judaeans.” (Matthew 27:37)

Now there was also a superscription over him, “This is the king of the Judaeans.” (Luke 23:38)

Now Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross, and it was written, “Jesus the Nazorean, the king of the Judaeans.” Then many of the Judaeans read this title, because the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Roman, in Greek. So the chief priests of the Judaeans said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The king of the Judaeans,’ but that, ‘This man said, I am king of the Judaeans.’” Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.” (John 19:19-23)

A resume of the crime(s) that a person had perpetrated, written on a sort of tablet, was sometimes either hung around the neck of a condemned person or paraded on a sign before him as he was marched or dragged to the site of execution.

And inasmuch as some of the jurymen voted to acquit even these conspirators, the emperor [Augustus] made a law that in trials at which the defendant was not present the vote should not be taken secretly and the defendant should be convicted only by a unanimous vote. Now that he took these measures, not in anger, but as really conducive to the public good, he gave very strong proof; at any rate, when [Fannius] Caepio’s father freed one of the two slaves who had accompanied his son in his flight because this slave had wished to defend his young master when he met with death, but in the case of the second slave, who had deserted his son, led him through the midst of the Forum with an inscription making known the reason why he was to be put to death, and afterwards crucified him, the emperor was not vexed.
  • Dio Cassius, 54.3.7
At a public banquet in Rome [Caligula] immediately handed a slave over to the executioners for stealing a strip of silver from the couches, with orders that his hands be cut off and hung from his neck upon his breast, and that he then be led about among the guests, preceded by a placard giving the reason for his punishment.

A householder who said that a Thracian gladiator was a match for the murmillo, but not for the giver of the games, [Domitian] caused to be dragged from his seat and thrown into the arena to dogs, with this placard: "A favourer of the Thracians who spoke impiously."
  • Suetonius, Caligula 32; Domitian 10
But Attalus was called for loudly by the people, because he was a person of distinction. He entered the contest readily on account of a good conscience and his genuine practice in Christian discipline, and as he had always been a witness for the truth among us. He was led around the amphitheater, a tablet being carried before him on which was written in the Roman language ‘This is Attalus the Christian,’ and the people were filled with indignation against him. But when the governor learned that he was a Roman, he commanded him to be taken back with the rest of those who were in prison concerning whom he had written to Caesar, and whose answer he was awaiting.
  • Eusebius, Church History 5.1.43-44
In all the above passages, only one directly deals with a crucifixion. So it would seem that this was an occasional practice of variable application. Also, all of the above passages only speak of the placard in the context of the parading of the victim; the posting of the accusation on the cross is not-well attested, either because those describing crucifixion had already mentioned its being carried or because the practice was not standard. In fact, some think that the reason why this detail was remembered is precisely because it was unique.

‘King of the Judaeans’ (or traditionally, ‘king of the Jews’) is not a religious term, but a political one (cf. Josephus, Antiquities 14.36; 15.373; 16.311, all in reference to Herod the Great; Jewish War 6.104, of the Judahite king Jeconiah/Coniah/Jehoiachin; 7.171, “Alexander [Jannaeus], the king of the Jews;” Plutarch, Pompey 45.5 “Aristobulus, king of the Jews”). While there were a few people who doubted the historicity of the inscription, the early Christians generally hesitated to explicitly grant the title ‘king’ for Jesus for political reasons, so the title is not confessional and thus, is unlikely to have been fabricated. The title is not so much a formal statement of charges as it was an expression of Roman ridicule for a supposed insurrectionist who was made out to be king.​
 
(Continued)

And they crucify him and were dividing up his clothes, throwing the lot upon them, who may take what. (Mark 15:24)

And having crucified him, they divided up his clothes among them, throwing the lot. And sitting down, they were keeping watch over him there. (Matthew 27:35-36)

And when they came to the place called ‘Skull’, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. [And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”] And dividing up his clothes, they threw the lot. (Luke 23:33-34)

When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and made four parts, to each soldier a part; also the tunic. But the tunic was seamless, woven from the top throughout, so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but throw the lot for it to see whose it shall be,” that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “They divided up my clothes among them, and for my clothing they threw the lot.” So the soldiers did these things. (John 19:23-24)

From these texts we can infer that Jesus was naked on the cross (cf. Artemidorus, Oneirocritica 2.53):

Being crucified [in a dream] is auspicious for all seafarers. For the cross, like a ship, is made of wood and nails, and the ship’s mast resembles a cross. It is also auspicious for a poor man. For a crucified man is raised high and his substance is sufficient to keep many birds. But it means the betrayal of secrets. For a crucified man can be seen by all. On the other hand, it signifies harm for rich men, since the crucified are stripped naked and lose their flesh.

We are not told how Jesus was crucified. The only explicit indication in the gospels of Jesus being nailed onto His cross comes from Thomas’ statement in John 20:25: “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails…” Even then, it only speaks of nails being driven into Jesus’ hands, with no indication of the feet. The 2nd-century Gospel of Peter is equally silent about the feet (“Then they drew the nails out of the hands of the Lord and placed him upon the earth…”), and two out of the three earliest images of crucifixion are ambiguous about the matter; the Pereire gemstone, by contrast, shows the crucified figure’s legs as unbound to the cross, but spread out, dangling loosely. (But then again, the figure himself seems to be merely tried at the wrists with rope than nailed.)

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3784/crucifixionh.jpg

On the other hand, the ankle bone of Yehohanan (the crucified man from Givat ha-Mivtar) shows us that the nailing of the feet or ankles, even if not ‘common’ procedure, is at least an attested practice. Also, the Christian interpretation of Psalm 22:16 (“they pierced my hands and my feet”) seems to encourage the idea (so Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 97: “for when they crucified Him, driving in the nails, they pierced His hands and feet”).



Luke 24:40 (“He showed them his hands and his feet”) can also be taken as evidence that there was something about/at Jesus’ feet which could convince the disciples, but on the other hand, there is also a possibility that it need not necessarily mean a nail wound. For instance, the mid 2nd-century Epistula Apostolorum interprets the command in the light of the popular belief that ghosts levitate: “That you may know that it is I, put your finger, Peter, in the nailprints of my hands, and you, Thomas, put your finger in the spear-wounds of my side; but you, Andrew, look at my feet and see if they do not touch the ground. For it is written in the prophet: ‘The foot of a ghost or a demon does not join to the ground’.”​
 
Ezekiel 9:4. The “sign” in the original text was the Tau Hebrew character and at the time it was shaped like a lower case t.

It could not have been a capital T because there had to be some place to put the sign.
People who advocate the traditional Latin cross usually appeal to this, but this is not a very strong argument. For one, the sign could have been fixed to the patibulum (the cross) in such a way that it would be “above His head.” Alternatively, the inscription was attached to a wooden pole or handle, kind of like how the medieval artists who choose to show a T-shaped cross portray it.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/729/crucifixio.jpg

In any case, the paleo-Hebrew/Phoenician (paleo-Hebrew is just one of the local variants of the Phoenician alphabet anyway) tav, while it could like a +, could also look like an x. To complicate the matter further, early Christians also attached an importance to the T as a symbol of the Cross.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top