# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

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There, don’t you both feel better? And we made it to 3,000 posts. Not too bad for a night’s work. Let’s call it a night.
 
LOL!

Good night, sock boys! And thanks for getting us over 3,000. Won’t the moderator be surprised when he comes in tomorrow morning!

🙂
 
evangelical_ed said:
Prayer to God, not Mary.

:rolleyes:
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Sorry, I missed all the action-if that’s what you call it. I had to beat up a kid who didn’t want to go to Church, ride my bike and then take a shower. Now I come back and it looks like everyone’s left me! It’s only 5pm on the left coast- so, OK, I’m a little late here-but I’m going back where *I *left off-question #2, I believe.

I can ask anyone to intercede for me. I’ve even heard God listens to Evangelicals- sometimes.:whistle:
 
paul_c said:
derek:
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ***
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How do I know for sure? See Romans 8 above and 1 John below 🙂

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that ***you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Eternal life is no guess work unless you are not a believer, one who rejects the gospel, such as you have already stated, or you are new to the faith and God has yet to grant that assurance, which is a blessing to those who walk by faith and obedience to King Jesus.

You read these Epistles very selectively, noting only those passages that seem to support your personal interpretation. This is the danger of personal interpretation - selective reading. You speak with contempt about the Church interpreting scripture for Catholics, but the church wrote the scripture and knows what it means and understands the context behind the writings. Why do you think its superior to try to understand it on your own. Do you really believe that you personally have more insight on the Bible than the Catholic Church?

As for Romans, have you ever read it in its entirety or do you just use bible tracts, which selectively pull out readings out of context which then miss the truth.
Have you seen how Roman’s starts: Here is the beginning of Chapter 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Does this sound like he’s saying that you can be saved once and for all by just believing in Christ? No. you must persevere in good works. What he is describing in Chapter 8 is part of a long several chapter discussion on why simply following the Jewish laws without Faith in Jesus is insufficient.
You know very little about what the Catholic church teaches, so perhaps it would be better for you to ask what the church teaches rather than to tell us what it teaches. We read the Scripture probably as much as you do. I personally read 5 chapters per day plus I hear 2-3 additional readings at daily mass and then whatever additional reading I do for apologetics. I’ve been reading the Bible daily since the gave me my first copy in 6th grade ccd class. Most Catholic apologists will use exclusively scripture in discussing theology and salvation with Protestants because it is accepted as a common denominator. As for the Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture. At one point, I thought I could interpret scripture for myself and occasionally found myself in conflict with church teachings. I then took the time to understand why, and I found that in every case, the church had considered things that I had not. I learned to trust the church. After many years of this, I find that I am never in conflict now.
You can look no futher than the Roman’s 2 quote above. Clearly, you must persevere in doing good works. And what is the reason to distinguish between sanctification and justification? In the end you will either have eternal life or you won’t and this will require you to be holy.
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Perhaps looking at Romans in the context, which you have showm; this is the contrast between obedience and disobedience. The one’s that persevere and produce good works are the one that were justified; the others are the sons of disobedience. You must always seek context and not allow for contradiction; this is why you will never be able to rebut faith alone as justification nor show justification and santifiction are two sides of the same coin because it is not truth and only truth holds up to the anvil of time.

Interesting you would go so far as to generalize chapter 8 and then further generalize the following chapters, when chapter 8 of Romans is the pinnacle of the NT in my opinion; and shows rebukes 2 things you staunchly and erroneously believe 1) you can lose your salvation and 2) justified before God soley on the basis of faith.

Continued
 
Romans 8:28-end 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and ***these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, ***He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 ***Who will separate us from the love of Christ? ***Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, “FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.” 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You see the Trinty working through the life of the saved on every aspect of our spiritual life, from justification, santification to glorification. Who can separete the saved or justified from God; nothing can. It doesn’t say except “you”; and John 17 says “no one can snatch then out of the Fathers hand” and “All that the father has given to me I lose none, except the son of perdition so the Scripture would be fulifilled”; you can’t lose what you don’t have and if you believe you can have it, then lose it - you are most likely not saved yet.

If you want to confound a Catholic apologist; ask them what the tradtions Paul spoke of are in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and see either crazy answer or beating around the bushes; they can’t answer it honestly w/out coming to a simple statement. Our church says so; yet simple word study of the Pauline epistles shows that the simple redering for tradition is doctrine or teaching. In fact 2 Thes. 2:15 makes it clear that they are one in the same if either by letter (written) or by mouth. Read the verse a few times and tou will see it, alsi in 1 tim 3:15 you can see similar and then as I said do a word study on the Pauline epistes on the use of tradition or traditions. To say your church has the authorization from God to add teachings not found in scripture is boastful and prideful as God will judge it IMO.
 
paul_c said:
God works through men when appointing within the Church. In Acts, it is the apostles that baptize and lay on hands in healing and ordaining. There is no gospel or Grace or a Gospel of works. There is one gospel that was given to the Apostles to pass down through the ages. It is based on God’s grace, but requires men to do the works that those graces allow.
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Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Shouldn’t you check the Scripture before you speak for God? Or do you speak for your church? Isn’t there a command to “rightly divide the Word”?

You rightly state that God works through men, but it still lands on God lap; He is the one who ordains, not men. Likewise, He is the one that saves, not your good works or good fruits or what ever name you chose to give them.
 
DerekD said:
I belong to the church of Jesus Christ, latter day saints, the royal priesthood of believers as the Bible puts it.
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I need to make a correction; I don’t know if anyone caught it; I’m on page 68 and trying to move forward, but it should say “NOT latter day saints” - lord forgive me. :rolleyes:
 
joe370 said:
Hey Derek, you said:

Reading the bible won’t save you either. Although it is the very voice of God and the Holy spirit can remove the veil of blindness to the gospel…

Thanks for answering my questions; I’ll just touch on each one, a little at a time. If I choose never to go to church, or read my bible (the very voice of God) - and simply accept the fact that believing that Jesus is my Savior through His work on the cross then that is all I need to do? No church or bible, If I choose to opt out, just Christ? Do you attend the church of Jesus Christ, latter day saints simply to worship Jesus Christ with other Christians, or is there some edification that takes place from pastors or minister? If not, then, does everyone simply bring their spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly? In other words, could I attend your church and bring my spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly to which you belong, without any resistance?

Is the link below the church to which you belong?

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
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That was a big typo, s/b “NOT latter day saints” ; perhaps you would like to restate your question based on correct information…sorry about that error Joe…God help me.
 
Oh, I don’t know. He might be a little eccentric, maybe, but that’s part of his charm!
 
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