# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

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Sorry, I missed all the action-if that’s what you call it. I had to beat up a kid who didn’t want to go to Church, ride my bike and then take a shower. Now I come back and it looks like everyone’s left me! It’s only 5pm on the left coast- so, OK, I’m a little late here-but I’m going back where *I *left off-question #2, I believe.

I can ask anyone to intercede for me. I’ve even heard God listens to Evangelicals- sometimes.:whistle:
Yes, but do Evangelicals listen to HIM?

😃
 
Now whoes being uncharitable? I don’t suppose you’ll get a demerit for that one.

:rolleyes:

But hey, did you see? I went to the Apologetics Forum and sorted them by Replies. We really did get this one to the top! I guess that counts for something.
 
Derek,
While I agree that Salvation is a gift from God, we must cooperate with it to be saved. We are called to be holy as the Lord is holy. Do you recognize that?
Who makes one holy; you or God? See the point? You will not get or see the gospel until you first break from the idea that scripture teaches that justification & santification are two sides of the same coin, justified, saved from sin & it s penalty by the imputed righteouness of Jesus Christ at the moment one truly believes and repents before God, then He, not you, will start the santification process and finish it with glorification. You cooperate only in the snese that your desires become His desires and that also is a gift of God. The holy Spirit moves like the wind, so who knows when and where He will dwell next?
 
These questions are exactly the ones that lead me to see that Bible based Christianity is only a piece of the entire Truth. I thoroughly agree that all should have access to a Bible that they can understand, but the way that Martin Luther set about doing so has resulted in a lot of confusion over the Bible’s role in the Church and our role in interpreting it. Without the traditions of the apostles of Christ and without the protection of the Holy Spirit, the doctrines in the Bible become many different things for many different people. Because Christ wanted us to be united, it’s hard for me to believe that the Bible is the only basis he left us for our faith in Him. There must be more to Christianity than the Good Book.
You seem to contradict yourself with the first sentance versus the last sentance. Perhpas you have received divine revelation from somewhere outside the Bible and perhaps you can prove it was divine in nature? Since you cannot, the you would be better to stick with the “Good Book” as you called it. You may want to speak to God or to Mary or some other entity that has access to God and let Him know that in your opinion, He did not leave enough revelation to satisfy your soul even though you rarely read the “Good Book” in ernest. 🙂
 
Who makes one holy; you or God? See the point? You will not get or see the gospel until you first break from the idea that scripture teaches that justification & santification are two sides of the same coin, justified, saved from sin & it s penalty by the imputed righteouness of Jesus Christ at the moment one truly believes and repents before God, then He, not you, will start the santification process and finish it with glorification. You cooperate only in the snese that your desires become His desires and that also is a gift of God. The holy Spirit moves like the wind, so who knows when and where He will dwell next?
Derek, your enthusiasm for Christ is admirable, but you admonishments are off base and your theology is your own, not Christ’s. Take the time to learn about Catholicism on these pages and through other forums. You have been greatly mislead about what Catholicism teaches and also about how to interpret the Gospel. Yes, it is a Gospel of Grace and yes, It is God’s grace that allows us to be holy. But we must also cooperate in his plan. If we fail to do so, turning from Christ through sin, we will be condemned, regardless of our claims to faith. You see, if you don’t follow Christ’s example in your life, claiming to have faith is nothing more than empty words. And you describe it rightly, we need to make his desires our desires. And yes this is a gift, but we must accept this gift. We have free will and reason and we can decide not to make his desires our own if we wish. That is why we live. It is to demonstrate our desire (or not) to love as God loves (to the best of our limited ability).

And yes, the Holy Spirit moves like the wind. Perhaps it brought you to these pages so that you could learn the WHOLE truth about salvation. Cooperate with the spirit instead of trying to bend it to your will, a path on which you will not be successful.
 
You believe you are mocking me, but you are not, I am only telling you what God has said.

If the first piece {of dough} is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
You’re right about mocking, and I probably shouldn’t, but I believe you’re mocking God-although not intentionally. Paul did so unknowingly, too, before the road to Damascus, with much sincerity and zeal defending the true faith as he believed it to be.

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Gal 6:7-10

I’m sure you’re efforts are intended to please the Spirit, but what’s of importance here is that the harvest to be reaped by persevering in doing good is eternal life.

If a person read much of this thread objectively, they should not be able to escape the fact that scripture is indeed ambiguous, even though the speakers and writers were not intentionally so. And to say that scripture’s not ambiguous for *you *is only to say what many others who disagree with you likewise say. The only thing left then is to say that, ‘so long as they agree with me, they have the Spirit of God’, and this idea may fly for some-and did for me for a time, though I never thought of it quite that way-but it can never do so again. Once one sees through the fallacy of Sola Scriptura, it’s all over-no doctrine based solely on it can ever again be taken seriously. Ones grasp of the faith becomes exposed for what it is- a dubious understanding, derived from an ambiguous source- which can easily tend toward producing spiritual pride and exclusivism.

So hopefully you won’t deceive too many with the same winds of doctrine you’ve been deceived with-and I once was as well-if you’re blest enough to end up extricated from your horse.

Paul and the writer of Hebrews here exhort* believers *to take care lest they lose eternal life:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14


Why would we need to make any effort to be holy if faith alone/imputed righteousness does the job?

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Do you really think Paul means “except in the case of imputed righteousness gained by faith”? Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said we can’t even have impurity in our hearts.

**Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1Cor 9:24-27**

Pauls’ preaching here concerns attaining eternal life.

**For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6**

Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed”
Justin Martyr speaks of righteousness attained by our own efforts.


This is simply a principle of life-paralleled in the spiritual and the mundane worlds-to be rewarded for our efforts.

Irenaeus
“[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care” (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [196]).


Iraneaus also speaks of the way God in His wisdom-for mans best- has set things up, in this case the obtaining of immortality/eternal life.
 
Whoever is moderating this thread, please, before you close it, just delete the few offensive posts by Soc near the end of the thread, who is posting under the pen names catholic Carl and evangelical Ed, and leave the thread, if at all possible. There is a lot of substantive information for non-Catholics who stumble across this thread, and are curious about the Catholic faith.

All of page 85 and especially post 1275…

Thanks, Joe…👍

Soc, thanks for showing me your true colors tonight; won’t waste my time any more.
 
Whoever is moderating this thread, please, before you close it, just delete the few offensive posts by Soc near the end of the thread, who is posting under the pen names catholic Carl and evangelical Ed, and leave the thread, if at all possible. There is a lot of substantive information for non-Catholics who stumble across this thread, and are curious about the Catholic faith.

All of page 85 and especially post 1275…

Thanks, Joe…👍

Soc, thanks for showing me your true colors tonight; won’t waste my time any more.
What offensive posts were those, Joe?

🤷

Please tell me so that i may see what i did wrong.
 
I just want to thank everyone for helping me think this thing through. I think i’m closer now than i’ve ever been to becoming a Catholic, once again.

🙂
 

  1. *]I definitely cannot rely on the Bible alone to show me the truth about some things.
    *]One reason for this is that the Bible appears unclear about important doctrines, such as the Sacrament of baptism, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the succession of Apostolic authority.
    *]Since i cannot rely on the Bible and reason alone to guide me, i need the help of someone who knows what the truth is.
    *]That someone has to be some kind of authority who has some knowledge of the truth to which i’m not privy.
    *]The alternatives for such an authority and teacher are the many Protestant denominations, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or perhaps some other authority.
    *]Peter was an authority (perhaps even the authority of authorities) of Jesus’ early Church.
    *]There was a kind of chain of command of authorities, for the Church in Jerusalem gave instructions to the churches outside Jerusalem.
    *]Even Paul–who was God’s chosen missionary to the Greeks–was under the authority of these authorities in Jerusalem.
    *]After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, it makes sense that these authorities of the church in Jerusalem would relocate and continue their chain of command.
    *]It makes sense that the Apostles would choose successors, and that these successors would continue the chain of command that began in Jerusalem, even after the fall of Jerusalem.
    *]It’s quite possible that the Church in Rome became their base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem.
    *]The Catholic Church of today claims to be the end result of this chain of command.
 
Some other things i’ve learned:
  • I’m more ignorant of the truth than i ever thought possible.
  • This ignorance is the result of finding Christ’s words in the Bible ambiguous.
  • My prayers for wisdom have resulted in a surprising answer: I’m convinced i cannot find the truth through my trusted methods of the past–revelation from Scripture and reason to discern the true meaning of the biblical text.
  • If i don’t trust the Catholic Church, i’m going to have to figure out who to trust.
  • I’m not sure i can trust Evangelicals, for they disagree the Bible is ambiguous, and think me confused or deceived.
  • Some Catholics think me confused or deceived, too, but others agree that there is indeed ambiguity that can only be resolved by a trusted authority.
  • That authority is the Catholic Church, they tell me.
  • Some people want to disagree and debate, no matter what i say, but i’ve learned from experience that it’s too easy to win an argument, but lose the truth in the process.
  • Some people want to point the finger and call me disingenuous, no matter how sincere i try to be. I guess Abraham Lincoln was right when he said, “You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”
  • Some people want me to stop asking questions and just believe. To stop testing the spirits to see what is true and just taste and see that the Lord is good. But if i didn’t ask questions, i’d still be an Evangelical.
  • Some people just won’t give up answering my questions. I thank God for them, and pray that they will reap a harvest of righteousness because they did not give up doing what is right, no matter how frustrating my incessant questions might be.
 
One more thing: I think this discussion forum is the best thing since sliced Real Presence! I highly recommend it to anyone seeking answers. Thanks CAF.

🙂
 
Some other things i’ve learned:
  • I’m more ignorant of the truth than i ever thought possible.
  • This ignorance is the result of finding Christ’s words in the Bible ambiguous.
  • My prayers for wisdom have resulted in a surprising answer: I’m convinced i cannot find the truth through my trusted methods of the past–revelation from Scripture and reason to discern the true meaning of the biblical text.
  • If i don’t trust the Catholic Church, i’m going to have to figure out who to trust.
  • I’m not sure i can trust Evangelicals, for they disagree the Bible is ambiguous, and think me confused or deceived.
  • Some Catholics think me confused or deceived, too, but others agree that there is indeed ambiguity that can only be resolved by a trusted authority.
  • [SIGN]That authority is the Catholic Church, they tell me.[/SIGN]* Some people want to disagree and debate, no matter what i say, but i’ve learned from experience that it’s too easy to win an argument, but lose the truth in the process.
  • Some people want to point the finger and call me disingenuous, no matter how sincere i try to be. I guess Abraham Lincoln was right when he said, “You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”
  • Some people want me to stop asking questions and just believe. To stop testing the spirits to see what is true and just taste and see that the Lord is good. But if i didn’t ask questions, i’d still be an Evangelical.
  • Some people just won’t give up answering my questions. I thank God for them, and pray that they will reap a harvest of righteousness because they did not give up doing what is right, no matter how frustrating my incessant questions might be.
No Catholic’s don’t tell you tim does

Read 1 Tim 3:15

Might want to check it out. Tim. is who tells us that the Church has the foundation of the truth not us.

To be honest with you if you read Tim, all of you doubts should be pretty much summed up:thumbsup:
 
SOC
I’m glad this thread has been illuminating for you. That is how it should be.
 
I’ve just been reading along now for the last few weeks rather than contributing. I must say that the recent humorous exchange was a refreshing hoot. God bless you all.

Soc…you manage to bring out the best in people.

Have a great day.
 
I’m submitting this post for only one reason. This is the longest thread I’ve ever been involved in and I just wanted to add another tally to the count.

Wahoo!!!
 
Actually you have the facts backwards Paul; I can show from Scripture everything I have said and have; it is you friend that have failed to provide scriptural references to your position w/o taking the scripture out of it context…anyone can prove any belief by pulling versus out of context and people do it all the time because of evil motives or ignorance of scripture; I do not believe you have any evil motives for the record.

Just because you make yet another broad and general statement that what i have shown is unsubstantiate doesn’t change the truth of the matter. But it is an indication that you have even less to say in regards to your position in relation to scripture.

On obedience; I am obedient to the head of the church, which is Jesus Christ. Who is your church head? Pope Benedict XVI I believe? I don’t recall specifically saying i know more about God than the Catholic Church; I think that was said by someone who said I said that, but if I did say that, then i would not disagree at this point.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to send me 3-4 links of the better Catholic links; I know the Vatican site, so you can skip that one, but other relevent sites you think might benefit my understanding would be nice…thanks in advance.
here is the catechism. Start with that - It’s pretty comprehensive
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
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