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Bookcat
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An example of course is the thief on the cross
as Pope Benedict XVI reminds us:
“…the so-called “Good Thief” straight away receives forgiveness and the joy of entering the Kingdom of Heaven. “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43)”
Pope Benedict XVI (21 November 2010)
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ConstantineTG
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touchéMore specifically, he was what the Orthodox should be; fully Eastern and fully in Communion with Rome
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ConstantineTG
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You miss the fact that Eastern praxis is holisitc, thus you can’t do one aspect of the faith and not the other and expect to be saved.
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SonCatcher
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God doesn’t need works to identify a disciple of Christ. There must be some other reason He requires them.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Works are an expression of our faith; or, our obligation to God’s love for us. There are many types of work, and they all confirm our faith. The differences is a matter of semantics. Works is praying, praising God, thanking God, reading scriptures, attending Church, caring for the sick, feeding the hungry, loving one another as He loved us, etc. etc. etc. The list can go on and on. Without those things what is our faith? Would our faith grow without those things?
I’m not so sure what Erick is ‘working’ so hard to convey to us?
I’m not so sure what Erick is ‘working’ so hard to convey to us?
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Erick_Ybarra
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**Ver. 6. “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.”
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Even the miracles done by themselves, he says, declare the power of Faith, but I shall attempt if you will suffer me to draw my proofs from ancient narratives also. Then, as they made great account of the Patriarch, he brings his example forward, and shows that he too was justified by Faith. And if he who was before grace, was justified by Faith, although plentiful in works, much more we. For what loss was it to him, not being under the Law? None, for his faith sufficed unto righteousness. The Law did not then exist, he says, neither does it now exist, any more than then. In disproving the need of the Law, he introduces one who was justified before the Law, lest an objection should also be made to him; for as then it was not yet given, so now, having been given, it was abrogated. And as they made much of their descent from Abraham, and feared lest, abandoning the Law, they should be considered strangers to his kin; Paul removes this fear by turning their argument against themselves, and proves that faith is especially concerned in connecting them with Abraham. He draws out this argument more at length in the Epistle to the Romans; however he urges it also here in, the words,…
I think this section from the citation is enough to prove that Chrysostom believed that Abraham was justified by faith alone since he excludes all works in the fact.
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Even the miracles done by themselves, he says, declare the power of Faith, but I shall attempt if you will suffer me to draw my proofs from ancient narratives also. Then, as they made great account of the Patriarch, he brings his example forward, and shows that he too was justified by Faith. And if he who was before grace, was justified by Faith, although plentiful in works, much more we. For what loss was it to him, not being under the Law? None, for his faith sufficed unto righteousness. The Law did not then exist, he says, neither does it now exist, any more than then. In disproving the need of the Law, he introduces one who was justified before the Law, lest an objection should also be made to him; for as then it was not yet given, so now, having been given, it was abrogated. And as they made much of their descent from Abraham, and feared lest, abandoning the Law, they should be considered strangers to his kin; Paul removes this fear by turning their argument against themselves, and proves that faith is especially concerned in connecting them with Abraham. He draws out this argument more at length in the Epistle to the Romans; however he urges it also here in, the words,…
I think this section from the citation is enough to prove that Chrysostom believed that Abraham was justified by faith alone since he excludes all works in the fact.
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Erick_Ybarra
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Another quote from john Chrysostom from Galatians
Further, they were possessed with another apprehension; it was written, “Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Deuteronomy 27:26 And this he removes, with great skill and prudence, turning their argument against themselves, and showing that those who relinquish the Law are not only not cursed, but blessed; and they who keep it, not only not blessed but cursed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed. And how does he prove all this? For it is no common thing which we have promised; wherefore it is necessary to give close attention to what follows. He had already shown this, by referring to the words spoken to the Patriarch, “In you shall all nations be blessed,” Genesis 12:4 at a time, that is, when Faith existed, not the Law; so he adds by way of conclusion,
Ver. 9. “So then they which be of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.”
Then, that they might not turn round, and object that, true it was Abraham was justified by,…
Further, they were possessed with another apprehension; it was written, “Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Deuteronomy 27:26 And this he removes, with great skill and prudence, turning their argument against themselves, and showing that those who relinquish the Law are not only not cursed, but blessed; and they who keep it, not only not blessed but cursed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed. And how does he prove all this? For it is no common thing which we have promised; wherefore it is necessary to give close attention to what follows. He had already shown this, by referring to the words spoken to the Patriarch, “In you shall all nations be blessed,” Genesis 12:4 at a time, that is, when Faith existed, not the Law; so he adds by way of conclusion,
Ver. 9. “So then they which be of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.”
Then, that they might not turn round, and object that, true it was Abraham was justified by,…
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Prodigal_Son1
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Are we to cherry pick only those things we feel might support our view?
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ConstantineTG
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Here is a good article from OrthodoxWiki on the Eastern understanding of Justification and how St. John Chrysostom would understand it: orthodoxwiki.org/Justification
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Erick_Ybarra
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Not at all. It is my life’s desire to become Catholic. I’m just making sure to the best of my ability that its claims are historical. And I’m finding out disappointing things all over the place
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Prodigal_Son1
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You cannot discover truth from those who are against the Church.Not at all. It is my life’s desire to become Catholic. I’m just making sure to the best of my ability that its claims are historical. And I’m finding out disappointing things all over the place
I converted in 1985. I used scriptures, and then the early Church fathers only confirmed that which I learned in the scriptures.
As I said, I think the differences are merely semantics.
God Bless you on your walk.
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Richca
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We need to remind ourselves that justification or salvation by faith alone, Sola Fide, is first of all an invention of Martin Luther in the 16th century. This is historic fact.
Why faith alone? As Luther saw it, due to original sin, man’s will can no longer do any good. All of man’s acts are sin even those that have the appearance of good. This is manifestly false. Why would Jesus tell the woman caught in the act of adultery “Go and from now on sin no more” (John 8:11) if he knew the woman could do nothing but sin?
From what I understand, there are some protestants today whom I think don’t believe that all of man’s acts are sins. I’m not sure about this and I don’t know the poster’s position on this.
I’ll admit that faith is necessary upon conversion and throughout the christian life, but we are not justified in baptism with a faith devoid of charity or love as St Paul says “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.” (Galatians 5:6). A faith devoid of charity is nothing as St Paul says again “if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing” (1 Corinthians 13:2). Again, if our justification or salvation depends fundamentally on faith alone, why does Paul place faith inferior to charity or love as he says here “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love” ( 1 Corinthians 13:13). Can it be that we are justified without the greatest virtue, i.e, charity? The point I’m simply trying to make is that we are not justified in baptism by faith alone but by a faith working through charity. Much less can we continue in being justified without charity.
St Paul’s teaching of the preeminence of charity over all other virtues agrees with the teaching of Truth itself, Jesus. For Jesus says that the whole law and prophets can be summed up in the two great commandments of love of God and love of neighbor.
Again, love or charity resides in the will while faith resides in the intellect. The whole man, his intellect and will, plays a part in being justified. Not just his intellect.
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Mystophilus
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Er, no. He says that humanity is justified by faith, not by faith alone. He describes the process of theosis, by which, through the grace of God, we gradually conform ourselves to God.
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Richca
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Erick_Ybarra: what a wonderful grace that it is your life’s desire that you want to become a catholic!! I’ll keep you in my prayers. I understand how difficult it might be for a person who was maybe born and raised as a protestant to convert to catholicism. It is certainly a great grace from the Lord. If you continue to seek the truth and pray to God for light, I believe you will find it and come to realize that the Catholic Church is indeed the church Christ founded. God bless!Not at all. It is my life’s desire to become Catholic. I’m just making sure to the best of my ability that its claims are historical. And I’m finding out disappointing things all over the place
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LegoGE1947
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I wasn’t born or raised in any religious system but I had a curiosity about this “Jesus” as a kid. I liked listening to gospel music. I tried reading the Bible but never got much past the story of creation. When I was in the Navy they made us go to chapel during recruit training. I knew I wasn’t a Jew or a Catholic so by elimination I had to declare myself a Protestant. The chapel had this mural on the wall, a picture of a sailor piloting a ship through rough, stormy seas. And standing just behind him was an image of Jesus with his hands on the steering wheel of the ship along with those of the sailor. I’ve never forgotten that picture but I can never find it in any religious book store, Catholic or Protestant.
Don’t exactly understand all that led me to the Catholic Church but all I know is I’M HERE!
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Bookcat
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LegoGE1947
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The thief on the cross next to Jesus is an example. The one who said “Remember me when you get to your kingdom!”
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StLudmilla
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I guess I posted too many quotes from his homily on John 6 for anyone to catch the one that directly deals with the whole - faith works grace - , so here it is:
" How long shall we neglect our own salvation? Let us bear in mind of what things Christ has deemed us worthy, let us give thanks, let us glorify Him, not by our faith alone, but also by our very works, that we may obtain the good things that are to come, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom and with whom, to the Father and the Holy Ghost be glory, now and ever and world without end. Amen."
“that we may obtain the good things that are to come” = eternal salvation. He is very clear. This is the very clearly Catholic view of salvation.
" How long shall we neglect our own salvation? Let us bear in mind of what things Christ has deemed us worthy, let us give thanks, let us glorify Him, not by our faith alone, but also by our very works, that we may obtain the good things that are to come, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom and with whom, to the Father and the Holy Ghost be glory, now and ever and world without end. Amen."
“that we may obtain the good things that are to come” = eternal salvation. He is very clear. This is the very clearly Catholic view of salvation.
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