Was John Chrysostom Catholic?

[Bookcat]

Yes I know. I think any protestant would heartily agree with what the pope is saying there.

But Trent, which is an infallible doctrine says that we are not justified by the cross and forgiveness alone as the ground; but actual righteousness that we perform. Paul does not teach this. Justification is accomplished totally outside of ourselves in the cross and resurrection. We benefit from the death of Jesus through baptismal regeneration. Once baptized, we are justified in Gods sight, not because of the new righteousness and obedience that is in me by virtue of being raised with Christ, but because our debt of guilt is gone.

And such (what the Pope wrote) represents Catholic Teaching.

I will note too that often this sort of discussion based on misunderstanding “terms” and their use. And ends up being what Paul refers to as arguing about words.

Often with one thinking “hey they believe such and such” where as no…such is not a correct representation…

Humm…Trent does NOT teach that one is “not justified by the cross and forgiveness alone as the ground…but actual righteousness that we perform”

Rather what one can not do some work …some “righteous act” and become justified. It is not “works” that justify one. Not even “repentance” “earns” salvation. One is saved by the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Tis gift. Tis grace. Tis not works on a persons part that earns it.

In fact Trent taught: “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification”

Pope Benedict XVI is quite up on what Trent taught by the way --not only as Pope but before as the Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. What he is teaching in those Audiences --is Catholic Teaching.

“Justification is accomplished totally outside of ourselves in the cross and resurrection. We benefit from the death of Jesus through baptismal regeneration.”

Yes indeed (though the justification does take place “with in” one – in “application” and of course repentance and belief in Jesus and his resurrection etc is part of one becoming justified (again this is “not a work” but rather by grace).

“Once baptized, we are justified in Gods sight, not because of the new righteousness and obedience that is in me by virtue of being raised with Christ, but because our debt of guilt is gone.”

Again – yes if you mean not because of “some virtue I did”. One indeed “dies and raises” with Christ --one is given already a share in the resurrection --one is given in virtue of being raised with Christ in baptism – true life.

Though it is also true that the “obedience of Faith” is involved not again as any “work” that effects justification-- one is not justified by" works" as Paul points out so beautifully. And there is more to it – one is a “new creation”…one is “in Christ” …one is holy…one is now “a saint” and called to walk now in love in the good works “prepared” for one as Scripture says.

 

[Bookcat]

Can it happen that a person is justified in Christ and then let say keels over and he never sees the fruit of his faith working in love. Never does a single “good work”.

And yet goes to heaven?

Certainly.

 

[Bookcat]

One who is justified – is then “holy” …“a saint” …“in Christ” to use the beautiful words of St. Paul…they have been made such by the grace of God --(by the Paschal Mystery of the death and resurrection of Christ) --not their works.

If they keel over then and there out of excitement --they go to heaven.

 

[Bookcat]

Now after the blood of Christ has justified a person (yes that person is of course involved…they by grace ordinarily explicitly repent and believe in the Gospel and present themselves for Baptism --such though is not their being of course “justified by works” (as you agree)) --so after they are “in Christ” via repentance and faith and baptism -via grace

• -is it to be “faith working in love” as Paul says?

Yes of course.

Such though is by the grace of God. They are to walk in love. Or as Paul also puts it they are to “walk in the Spirit”.

And they are to more and more be conformed to Christ. God gives man the dignity of cooperating with him. The person does not enter a state of “justification” by his works. But God does involve their good works (a fruit of faith and grace!) after such justification (what is referred to as “initial justification” to use the technical term). And gives them the *dignity of cooperating with him *in their increase in the life of justification during their Christian life --the life of grace etc in them as they are more and more conformed to Christ. Then he “crowns his own gifts” as it were…which are though not gifts without the true free cooperation of the person…he gives them the dignity of cooperating with the gifts and grace and the existence he himself has given…of then “meriting” etc. And he as it were “crowns his own gifts” as the Liturgy (following St. Augustine) says.

If they should fall away via the sin that is deadly – they need to be returned by the grace of God to “justification” --again not as something they “earn”. But by grace. By the blood of Jesus Christ …by his death and resurrection…

 

[Richca]

Your “preaching to the choir” here. The Catholic Church Professes what Paul (Sacred Scripture) teaches – that one is not

justifed by “works” but by “faith”.

Amen!

As I’ve already mentioned in another post, we are justified by a faith that worketh through love or charity ( Galatians 5:6).

 

[Bookcat]

As I’ve already mentioned in another post, we are justified by a faith that worketh through love or charity ( Galatians 5:6).

 

[StLudmilla]

Very simply, Protestants confuse terms. For them justification is the same as eternal salvation. Catholics understand differently and rightly so, Jesus on the cross won redemption for all man kind. Redemption is not the same as eternal salvation. A man fully perfected is one who uses his freewill to choose God. The redemption that Jesus won for us, and the grace that flows from it makes possible this exercise of our freewill in faith to choose God. At any time until our death, we can choose differently and reap what we sow by committing mortal sin. That is why we need the grace of rebirth and the graces flowing from Heavenly Bread for our journey and the graces necessary for final perseverance including reconciliation.

Now as far as** the original question**, how can we show that Saint John C. was Catholic. Here’s another example:
Look at his explanation of verse 13 of Galatians 3. Obviously he does not hold to the Protestant notion of penal substitution atonement. For he is quite clear that the curse that Jesus bore (the curse of hanging on the cross) is** NOT** the same as the one that human beings bear because of sin (the curse of breaking the law.) So the whole Protestant notion of a** literal vicarious atonement**, Jesus bearing on the cross exactly the punishment due from sin that we should have received is NOT what he teaches. Instead Catholics and St John C. teach that the cross, what Christ suffered, is sufficient for the redemption of man from sin.

 

[Bookcat]

As I’ve already mentioned in another post, we are justified by a faith that worketh through love or charity ( Galatians 5:6).

Sure that too is a true statement.

Can it happen that a person is justified in Christ and then lets say keels over out of the excitement of the event and he never sees the fruit of his faith working in love.* Never does a single “good work”*.

And yet goes to heaven?

Certainly.

---

(one is though it is to be noted – already justified prior to any “faith working through love”)​

See the audiences of Pope Benedict XVI for a fuller treatment of the subject.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Actually it is very clear that Chrysostom believed that Jesus died our punishment rescuing us from the curse over transgressors.

In reality, the people were subject to another curse, which says, “Cursed is every one that continues not in the things that are written in the book of the Law.” Deuteronomy 27:26 To this curse, I say, people were subject, for no man had continued in, or was a keeper of, the whole Law; but Christ exchanged this curse for the other, “Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree.” As then both he who hanged on a tree, and he who transgresses the Law, is cursed, and as it was necessary for him who is about to relieve from a curse himself to be free from it, but to receive another instead of it, therefore Christ took upon Him such another, and thereby relieved us from the curse. It was like an innocent man’s undertaking to die for another sentenced to death, and so rescuing him from punishment. For Christ took upon Him not the curse of transgression, but the other curse, in order to remove that of others. For, “He had done no violence neither was any deceit in His mouth.” Isaiah 53:9; 1 Peter 2:22 And as by dying He rescued from death those who were dying, so by taking upon Himself the curse, He delivered them from it.

 

[Bookcat]

Faith

A great quote from Pope Benedict XVI from his document Porta Fidei on the upcoming “Year of Faith” (starts Oct 11 --do not miss it)

“During this time we will need to keep our gaze fixed upon Jesus Christ, the “pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (Heb 12:2): in him, all the anguish and all the longing of the human heart finds fulfilment. The joy of love, the answer to the drama of suffering and pain, the power of forgiveness in the face of an offence received and the victory of life over the emptiness of death: all this finds fulfilment in the mystery of his Incarnation, in his becoming man, in his sharing our human weakness so as to transform it by the power of his resurrection. In him who died and rose again for our salvation, the examples of faith that have marked these two thousand years of our salvation history are brought into the fullness of light.”

"By faith, Mary accepted the Angel’s word and believed the message that she was to become the Mother of God in the obedience of her devotion (cf. Lk 1:38). Visiting Elizabeth, she raised her hymn of praise to the Most High for the marvels he worked in those who trust him (cf. Lk 1:46-55). With joy and trepidation she gave birth to her only son, keeping her virginity intact (cf. Lk 2:6-7). Trusting in Joseph, her husband, she took Jesus to Egypt to save him from Herod’s persecution (cf. Mt 2:13-15). With the same faith, she followed the Lord in his preaching and remained with him all the way to Golgotha (cf. Jn 19:25-27). By faith, Mary tasted the fruits of Jesus’ resurrection, and treasuring every memory in her heart (cf. Lk 2:19, 51), she passed them on to the Twelve assembled with her in the Upper Room to receive the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:14; 2:1-4).

By faith, the Apostles left everything to follow their Master (cf. Mk 10:28). They believed the words with which he proclaimed the Kingdom of God present and fulfilled in his person (cf. Lk 11:20). They lived in communion of life with Jesus who instructed them with his teaching, leaving them a new rule of life, by which they would be recognized as his disciples after his death (cf. Jn 13:34-35). By faith, they went out to the whole world, following the command to bring the Gospel to all creation (cf. Mk 16:15) and they fearlessly proclaimed to all the joy of the resurrection, of which they were faithful witnesses.

By faith, the disciples formed the first community, gathered around the teaching of the Apostles, in prayer, in celebration of the Eucharist, holding their possessions in common so as to meet the needs of the brethren (cf. Acts 2:42-47).

By faith, the martyrs gave their lives, bearing witness to the truth of the Gospel that had transformed them and made them capable of attaining to the greatest gift of love: the forgiveness of their persecutors.

By faith, men and women have consecrated their lives to Christ, leaving all things behind so as to live obedience, poverty and chastity with Gospel simplicity, concrete signs of waiting for the Lord who comes without delay. By faith, countless Christians have promoted action for justice so as to put into practice the word of the Lord, who came to proclaim deliverance from oppression and a year of favour for all (cf. Lk 4:18-19).

By faith, across the centuries, men and women of all ages, whose names are written in the Book of Life (cf. Rev 7:9, 13:8), have confessed the beauty of following the Lord Jesus wherever they were called to bear witness to the fact that they were Christian: in the family, in the workplace, in public life, in the exercise of the charisms and ministries to which they were called.

By faith, we too live: by the living recognition of the Lord Jesus, present in our lives and in our history."

 

[Richca]

The difference between protestants and catholics on justification is simply this:

Protestants believe that God reckons faith in the gospel for righteousness, and this consideration of God is the the immediate cause of justification. ``

Can you please provide any examples or scriptural texts in the gospels by which you believe that God reckons faith in the gospel for righteousness?

 

[Bookcat]

"Paul helps us to understand the absolutely basic and irreplaceable value of faith. This is what he wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3: 28).

This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24)."

–Pope Benedict XVI (see links above)

 

[StLudmilla]

Actually it is very clear that Chrysostom believed that Jesus died our punishment rescuing us from the curse over transgressors.

For Christ took upon Him NOT the curse of transgression, but the other curse, in order to remove that of others. For, “He had done no violence neither was any deceit in His mouth.” Isaiah 53:9; 1 Peter 2:22 And as by dying He rescued from death those who were dying, so by taking upon Himself the curse, He delivered them from it.

To be clear St. John C. is teaching that Christ, did** NOT** take up the curse of transgression. Therefore, St. John C. is NOT teaching penal substitutionary atonement.

 

[StLudmilla]

I do not disagree with anything that John Chrysostom has said in John 6. In fact, I don’t know of any protestants who would disagree.

Maybe you don’t understand what Protestants exactly believe, that is the only explanation for your above comment.

1. Protestants DO NOT believe in “THE VERY REALITY”, Christ’s real body and real blood: the Holy Eucharist. They DO NOT believe that they can touch, eat, fix their teeth in the real body of Christ present-ed in the Blessed Sacrament.
2. Protestants DO NOT believe that the reception of Sacraments are efficacious
3. Protestants DO NOT believe in the ALTAR - meaning it is the re-presenting of THE Sacrifice of Christ.. Instead they have a “table”
4. Most Protestants DO NOT believe they can sin mortally and gain eternal damnation and punishment for themselves. And certainly not by unworthily receiving a Sacrament.

 

[Richca]

quote:
Originally posted by richca

as i’ve already mentioned in another post, we are justified by a faith that worketh through love or charity ( galatians 5:6).

sure that too is a true statement.

---

 

[steve_b]

Just going through romans, it is very clear that he believes that “justification” is by faith alone; unless I am somehow mistaken.

He says that by only believing are we made righteous (Rom 1:16-17)

Faith is never alone.

• One can’t have faith without grace coming first. Then good works are also essential[Eph 2:8-10] faith is not alone.
• If one has no good works to accompany faith, one has a dead faith. And a dead faith is no faith at all. [Jas 2: 17 & 26] faith alone is a contradiction of scripture…

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I’m not saying that we are justified by a faith that is alone, but a faith that always has works with it. But the works do not justify us despite their presence with faith

This is what St. Paul teaches, for he excludes all works in the obtaining of justification but always knows that good works are the result of faith and are always with it, if someone is tone saved

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you Bookcat. But you are missing my point here as I think others might be too.
One is not justified prior to any faith not working through love. The faith necessary for justification in baptism is a faith working through love. This is called formed faith in catholic theology. The Council of Trent made this clear in reaction to Luther and the protestants belief that faith alone, without charity cooperating, is all that is required for justification.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I know protestants do not believe the Eucharist, I’m talking about the necessity of good works.

And Chrysostom is simply saying that christ Jesus himself was not a transgressor when he died, but as an innocent man dying, in effect for others who were transgressors, thereby taking the punishment sue to them. If you cannot see that in his se tion on Galatians 3 I don’t know any way else to help you

 

[StLudmilla]

The difference between protestants and catholics on justification is simply this:
Catholics believe that only initially are we saved by faith with no meritorious works prior to contributing. But thenceforth we are justified before God as a process of being made holy on in the inside. It is not by faith, but by works. (Of course it is assumed that the worker believes). ``

This is not what Catholic believe. The problem for you is that you are stuck in the Protestant paradigm and are trying to interpret what Catholics believe through that lens. You will never understand what Catholics believe if you keep trying to tell them what you think they believe based on Protestantism.

Secondly, your status says you are Protestant, but you use the word “we” when speaking of Catholics. Which is it? are you Catholic or Protestant? That will make a difference for how you can be answered.

Now for a simple summary:
Catholics are saved BY GRACE ALONE
Catholics have been saved, are saved, and will be saved.
The Sacraments, the ordinary MEANS OF SALVATION, are RECEIVED as GIFT through faith and are not earned by works.
Catholics can NOT earn heaven(we receive it), BUT we can** EARN **hell.