Was John Chrysostom Catholic?

[Bookcat]

he excludes all works in the obtaining of justification but always knows that good works are the result of faith and are always with it, if someone is tone saved

Right -all works in the “obtaining justification” is to be excluded. It is not by works one enters into --obtains-- justification. And yes it is then that the fruit of faith is good works…

Can justification that is the free gift of God through the death and resurrection of Christ then
increase by the grace of God and his giving man the dignity of “cooperating” with him in good works? Sure.

But it is NOT by works that a man enters (obtains) justification.

 

[StLudmilla]

I know protestants do not believe the Eucharist, I’m talking about the necessity of good works.

And Chrysostom is simply saying that christ Jesus himself was not a transgressor when he died, but as an innocent man dying, in effect for others who were transgressors, thereby taking the punishment sue to them. If you cannot see that in his se tion on Galatians 3 I don’t know any way else to help you

No one said that St. John C. is not teaching substitution atonement which is held by Catholicism. BUT HE IS very clearly teaching** AGAINST Protestantism’s notion of literal vicarious atonement (P.S.A.) I mean what part of NOT** taking up the curse of transgression do you not understand?!? I begin to think you don’t understand Protestantism at all. And when faced with obvious clear teaching pride keeps you in the dark.

Secondly, Christ on the cross as simply bearing “punishment” is to “small”. It is a desperate attempt to contain a God who can not be contained by a people too prideful to accept mystery and the all powerful God who creates out of** NOTHING**. Unfortunately, Protestants have painted themselves into a corner with their culture of “literal-ness” and they can no longer experience the MYSTERY that is God.

God can and does save the whole world because HE CREATES OUT OF NOTHING. God does not change. JESUS on the cross is not God the Father changing his mind in a moment of time. The Cross is eternal, before ALL time, it is the very temporal SIGN of God who creates out of NOTHING. That’s why it is the sign of contradiction.

Of course I hope you can begin to understand these truths, but, it will take faith seeking understanding. Not God-boxing.

 

[Bookcat]

Usually there is a good deal of confusion --due to the at times differing usage of the terms by the varied kinds of Protestants and by Catholics…

There have been long meetings between different communities of Protestants and Catholics seeking to understand each other…in many cases much progress has been made.

But after long meetings…and much “work” :hammering:

 

[Bookcat]

But does the Catholic Church Teach that one enters into justification – by ones works? (That one is “justified by works” to use the wonderful language of Paul)

No.

 

[onemangang]

I know protestants do not believe the Eucharist, I’m talking about the necessity of good works.

And Chrysostom is simply saying that christ Jesus himself was not a transgressor when he died, but as an innocent man dying, in effect for others who were transgressors, thereby taking the punishment sue to them. If you cannot see that in his se tion on Galatians 3 I don’t know any way else to help you

If St. John Chrysostom did NOT teach Penal Substitution, how could any of your claims in regards to St. John Chrysostom’s view of Justification hold true?

One could easily align a Christus Viktor view, or a Catholic Thomistic view in what St. John Chrysostom said, but could NOT apply a penal substitution in what St. John Chrysostom taught!

Can you prove that St. John Chrysostom taught penal substitution?

 

[Bookcat]

Thankfully one need not in practice “understand theologically” all the aspects of these questions.

Thankfully simplicity can be the ‘rule of the day’.

The Church proposes the Gospel – proclaims Jesus Christ of Nazareth -his death and his resurrection – and hearing such ~ a person by grace – can repent – believe – and be baptized…and enter into true life. Being made “a saint”. Now being “in Christ”.

and then follow Christ in faith and in love --fixing his eyes on him who is his hope and salvation.

(now of course there are details to that life…but he need not work out all the various aspects that are involved in the question of this thread!)

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

The atonement consists in Jesus christ, a man who was sinless, giving himself in love to suffer the pain of death which is due to the human race because of sin. His death blots out the requirements of death and hell for mankind, opening the way to salvation
The father gave his son to be forsaken in the sense if suffering for sin

This is how I’ve always understood it.

 

[Richca]

Quote:

Bookcat: in replying to your post here I do not mean to direct this post to you but to everyone as I think you understand what I’m saying.

To further clarify that faith without any other dispostions in the will such as charity does not bring about our justification, here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (in the article sanctifying grace) that summarizes the teaching of the Council of Trent:

“The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. ix) decrees that over and above the faith which formally dwells in the intellect, other acts of predisposition, arising from the will, such as fear, hope, love, contrition, and good resolution (loc. cit., cap. vi), are necessary for the reception of the grace of justification. This definition was made by the council as against the second fundamental error of Protestantism, namely that “faith alone justifies” (sola fides justificat)… Whenever faith justifies it is not faith alone, but faith made operative and replenished by charity.”

Again, in catholic teaching, faith and hope can exist in a person in the state of mortal sin but not charity. This is what one might call dead faith. It is only when faith and hope exists together with charity that one is justified in the site of God. This is consistent with what St Paul teaches, even though the protestants lay such great emphasis on faith, that faith without charity is nothing. Where faith, hope, and charity exists, a person is justified and this can take place even before the reception of the sacrament provided that the person desires receiving the sacrament (baptism of desire).
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[onemangang]

The atonement consists in Jesus christ, a man who was sinless, giving himself in love to suffer the pain of death which is due to the human race because of sin. His death blots out the requirements of death and hell for mankind, opening the way to salvation
The father gave his son to be forsaken in the sense if suffering for sin

This is how I’ve always understood it.

I’m sure there is much you are leaving out.

You are far to inquisitive to leave something so important as the atonement so open ended, and vague.

Did Christ suffer the wrath of God in a legal transaction on the cross, to satisfy God’s righteous and just wrath against sin, in a vicarious punishment?

 

[Richca]

Now for a simple summary:

Catholics are saved BY GRACE ALONE

Not entirely true, for although grace is a free gift from God, we can either accept it or reject it.

Catholics can NOT earn heaven(we receive it), BUT

we can** EARN **hell.

This is not true. For heaven is a reward that we merit by cooperating with God’s grace. God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace ( CCC #2008). And yes, we can earn hell too.

 

[Bookcat]

Yet I will reply

Bringing in all the various aspects of the 16th Century Council of Trent with its own particular background – and ways of expressing things – is not always helpful. And can at times confuse matters further.

And one must remember that there are different usages of the term “faith” in the Church.

Hence I prefer to use the audiences of Pope Benedict XVI above (or the Catechism etc) predominately. He has a wonderful way of putting things clearly and beautifully for 21st century ears/eyes.

 

[StLudmilla]

Not entirely true, for although grace is a free gift from God, we can either accept it or reject it.

This is not true. For heaven is a reward that we merit by cooperating with God’s grace. God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace ( CCC #2008). And yes, we can earn hell too.

You have to read the whole of CCC#2008:

"The fatherly action of God is** first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the GRACE of God**, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover,** itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ,** from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

The cross and what Jesus did in the work of redemption and the grace that he alone merited “powers” all the Sacraments, makes them efficacious, and “powers” in the same way all our works. Therefore, salvation is by grace alone.

 

[Bookcat]

The

More from Porta Fidei of Pope Benedict XVI:

“The Year of Faith, from this perspective, is a summons to an authentic and renewed conversion to the Lord, the one Saviour of the world. In the mystery of his death and resurrection, God has revealed in its fullness the Love that saves and calls us to conversion of life through the forgiveness of sins (cf. Acts 5:31). For Saint Paul, this Love ushers us into a new life: “We were buried … with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4).”

“Through faith, this new life shapes the whole of human existence according to the radical new reality of the resurrection. To the extent that he freely cooperates, man’s thoughts and affections, mentality and conduct are slowly purified and transformed, on a journey that is never completely finished in this life. “Faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) becomes a new criterion of understanding and action that changes the whole of man’s life (cf. Rom 12:2; Col 3:9-10; Eph 4:20-29; 2 Cor 5:17).”

 

[Richca]

QUOTE=Bookcat;9858896]

Bookcat: thank you. I haven’t looked at the audiences of Pope Benedict yet but I will have too. The catechism teaches what the Council of Trent taught ( refer to the quotes from the catechism in a previous post on justification I made) and which the Church has always taught.

There is nothing confusing in the decrees of the Council of Trent and the catholic teaching on justification. However, I’d like to clarify more the catholic teaching on justification in light of Erick’s proposition that we are justified by faith alone.

If protestants including Erick take justification by faith alone to mean that over and above faith which resides in the intellect, other acts of predisposition, arising from the will, such as fear, hope, love, contrition, good resolution, and cooperation with charity are not necessary for the reception of the grace of justification then catholics say that is false and is not the teaching of St Paul or any other scripture. However, this was the teaching of Luther and at least the early protestants.

If protestants including Erick take justification by faith alone to mean that over and above faith, other acts of predisposition arising from the will such as the ones I mentioned above including the will’s cooperation with charity are necessary for the reception of the grace of justification, then catholics could agree with them.

 

[Bookcat]

QUOTE=Bookcat;9858896]

 

[StLudmilla]

This is not true. For heaven is a reward that we merit by cooperating with God’s grace. God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace ( CCC #2008). And yes, we can earn hell too.

Secondly, CCC#2008 speaks nothing about heaven being a reward. In fact heaven is not even in that paragraph. The confusion that people get into is thinking that Heaven is a place, a “thing”. Heaven is not a place, it is a PERSON, God himself.

see CCC#1023-1025

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Protestants have never said that we are justified by faith alone in the sense that repentance, cooperation of the will, a heart made clean and holy can be absent. Absolutely not, faith in God in the Pauline is accompanied even from the very inception of faith with repentance, conversion, cooperation of the will, a charitable heart. However even though these are always present, God has chosen among them faith to be what is reckoned for righteousness in order to justify us. Faith is the means alone, but faith is never alone

 

[Richca]

You have to read the whole of CCC#2008:

"The fatherly action of God is** first **

The grace from Christ is the first and principle cause of our salvation. However, if by ''salvation is by grace alone" you mean to say that man cannot either accept or refuse grace by his own free will then that is not catholic teaching.
“Though God created us without us, he didn’t will to save us without us” ( St Augustine, quoted in the catechism but I can’t find the place presently)

 

[StLudmilla]

The grace from Christ is the first and principle cause of our salvation. However, if by ''salvation is by grace alone" you mean to say that man cannot either accept or refuse grace by his own free will then that is not catholic teaching.
“Though God created us without us, he didn’t will to save us without us” ( St Augustine, quoted in the catechism but I can’t find the place presently)

Obviously, I’m not saying that man can’t accept or refuse grace. Where have I even approached that?!?

I do think however you may have been in error thinking that any meriting that you may have done has not only and always been by GRACE.

 

[StLudmilla]

Protestants have never said that we are justified by faith alone in the sense that repentance, cooperation of the will, a heart made clean and holy can be absent. Absolutely not, faith in God in the Pauline is accompanied even from the very inception of faith with repentance, conversion, cooperation of the will, a charitable heart. However even though these are always present, God has chosen among them faith to be what is reckoned for righteousness in order to justify us. Faith is the means alone, but faith is never alone

Sure That’s why they teach assurance of salvation, “once saved always saved”, yada yada yada …

AND completely ignore verse like this one:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone