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Erick_Ybarra
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let’s not confused the matter. The roman catholic view and the protestant view of justification is radically opposed to each other. One is of faith and the other is of works.
To fortify what I said in previous post, here’s an example from Galatians and St. John Chrysostom:What is the meaning of working through love? Here he gives them a hard blow, by showing that this error had crept in because the love of Christ had not been rooted within them. For to believe is not all that is required, but also to abide in love. It is as if he had said, Had you loved Christ as you ought, you would not have deserted to bondage, nor abandoned Him who redeemed you, nor treated with contumely Him who gave you freedom. (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians 5:6)Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
That verse embodies what we are talking about here. Circumcision is an example of that OT Law - it doesn’t avail. Not that kind of work. Works of love, yes - those are integral to the concept of “faith” in Chrysostom’s (and Paul’s) theology.
Love always demands action, i.e. work. Therefore, by your own words a faith that justifies always has works with it.What does that quote contribute to the argument? Protestants interpret that as love being required also. Faith which justifies always has love. Luther never denied that
One thing I would ask myself is why should I believe Martin Luther and what he taught? Did he walk on water? Raise the dead to life? Did he live a holy life after the example and teaching of Christ? I don’t think he was exactly a saint. Is his teaching in line with that of Christ? Why should I believe in Martin Luther over the fathers of the Church, the many saints the Church has produced, over St Thomas Aquinas, St Bonaventura, St Francis of Assisi, St Dominic? Why should I believe Luther over the Catholic Church’s authorities, the pope and bishops. Was he wiser than they? Why should I believe Luther over 1500 years of tradition and theological reflection, and now over 2000 years in the Catholic Church? What the protestants really suffer in my view is the lack of tradition as well as a misunderstanding of scripture. Honestly, the whole protestant reformation phenomenon doesn’t make any sense to me.let’s not confused the matter. The roman catholic view and the protestant view of justification is radically opposed to each other. One is of faith and the other is of works.
An intrinsic righteousness, not a covering for one, which is Catholic!Chrysostom speaks of the "righteousness of God’ as the royal pardon and remission of sins that we receive through the sacrificial death of Jesus, teaching that a man is justified by faith without works.
This goes directly counter to the catholic claim that a man is justified by works and faith.
Why not Othodoxy?Well, I am considering the Catholic Church again (for I was raised in it but I had extremely poor training, in fact there was no training)
So St. John Chrysostom or any other Catholic back then, didn’t move the Church forward on the wisdom they were graced?The fact of the matter is, when you read the early church fathers, you cannot help but notice that they rely heavily on the scriptures and on what they knew was called the “apostolic depository” which was the faith handed to the Churches. This consisted of the traditions and doctrines of the apostles. From the point that the Church became devoid of the original apostles, the believers of the Church were not interested in moving everything forward in their own wisdom. Rather they were in the business of preserving the doctrines that were passed down from the apostolic depository churches. These were the Churches where the disciples of the original apostles were finding churches.
The Church does not recognize an authority “IN THEMSELVES” apart from Christ!When heresies arose and when questions of truth came up, the churches did not get together and somehow recognize an authority in themselves which allowed for them to make up new canons of laws and doctrines.
If there were heresies in the Church, like a bunch of Bishops being Arian, who would get together and council? The Arian bishops? The (now) Catholic bishops? Both together? How would it be discerned, who was right? Both lay claim to Apostolic Doctrine, why the Nicene Creed, or the Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed instead of an Arian creed? Did Christ preserve and protect the Church then? What Church? Big CRather they looked to the historical transmission of the original “faith” that was handed on from Christ to the apostles, from the apostles to the churches, and the churches to the rest of the saints. This is why Irenasus is big on the issue of those who succeeded the apostles, precisely BECAUSE the newly established bishops did not have some direct connect authority with God that was active and present to make whatever decisions and rules and beliefs as they saw fit. Rather, the bishops were accountable to what has been spoken by the Son, told to the apostles, and then to the churches which became apostolic depositories.
Wow, you have some sort of Authority to speak on behalf of St. PaulThe much later devotion doctrines of Mary and indulgences were not even spoken about! How do I know this? Because the modern devotion is in all the Catholic writings. Mary and the Saints are everything now. I heard and read a quote on this forum that said “when will souls breath mary as the body breathes air”?. How blasphemous is this? St. Paul would have looked at this quote and be appalled.
Which you are unable to point out, instead you rely on the wisdom that was imparted to you, through the lens of your tradition, and attempt to morph past Saints theology into your own!similar to justification. Catholic interpretation is simply just not exegetically sound. It is so illogical you cannot but help to see the Catholic’s devotion to uphold the infallibility of the Catholic Church despite the clear notion of errors all over the place.
Talk about smelling prideWhy should you consider Luther? Because he questioned the interpretations of the Church and he may have had a point. The early fathers relied much on the scriptures and the modern day bishops should be the same. But if you compare the writings of the early church fathers and the modern day bishops, you will smell the pride on these bishops in their reliance on much later church formulations.
Ok, so are you of St.John Chrysostom, or TertullianThe Early Church Fathers considered the NT documents to be the present voice of the apostles, not the chair of Peter. Tertullian believed that those who hear and read the voice of the apostles being read to them in their churches are those who follow apostolic constitutions.
So do CatholicsHe teaches that we are justified apart from any works. Read the last few posts
Hi Erick.If you read this large quote from Chrysostom, it is almost clear as pure glass that he believes that Abraham was justified alone and apart from any works. No one has really looked at this issue and responded accordingly.
What shall we then say that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.
He had said (5 manuscripts εἶπεν), that the world had become guilty before God, and that all had sinned, and that boasting was excluded and that it was impossible to be saved otherwise than by faith. He is now intent upon showing that this salvation, so far from being matter of shame, was even the cause of a bright glory, and a greater than that through works. For since the being saved, yet with shame, had somewhat of dejection in it, he next takes away this suspicion too. And indeed he has hinted at the same already, by calling it not barely salvation, but righteousness. Therein (he says) is the righteousness of God revealed. Romans 1:17 For he that is saved as a righteous man has a confidence accompanying his salvation. And he calls it not righteousness only, but also the setting forth of the righteousness of God. But God is set forth in things which are glorious and shining, and great. However, he nevertheless draws support for this from what he is at present upon, and carries his discourse forward by the method of question. And this he is always in the habit of doing both for clearness sake, and for the sake of confidence in what is said. Above, for instance, he did it, where he says, What advantage then has the Jew? Romans 3:1 and, What then have we more than they? Romans 3:9 and again, where then is boasting? It is excluded Romans 3:27: and here, what then shall we say that Abraham our father? etc. Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon (περιουσία νίκης πολλἥς). For for a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light. And this is why he passes by all the others, and leads his discourse back to this man. And he calls him father, as pertaining to the flesh, to throw them out of the genuine relationship (συγγενείας γνησίας) to him, and to pave the Gentiles’ way to kinsmanship with him. And then he says, For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory: but not before God. After saying that God justified the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through faith, and making the same sufficiently sure in what he said before, he now proves it by Abraham more clearly than he promised, and pitches the battle for faith against works, and makes this …" (Homiliy 9 Romans 4:1-2)
I just cannot fathom how a Catholic would agree with St. John Chrysostom at this point. For not only does Chrysostom say that a man is justified by faith alone, but he also indicates that Abraham was adorned with many good works WHEN he was justified and yet he was not justified by these good works, but rather by faith only. This is a solid argument which sides with the protestant view of justification. And it obviously goes without contest. For if someone here tries to prove from St. John Chrysostom that elsewhere he weds together faith and works of love to try and somehow prove that he has a catholic view of faith, this will not work, for Chrysostom recognizes Abraham’s adornment of good works with his faith, and yet excludes them in the act of justification. I think this one locks it up pretty well.
So, “he staggered not” . That means, against any evidence he did work relying on God through faith.Another quote demonstrating St. John Chrysostom’s understanding of faith in terms that protestants have taught
Ver. 20. But he staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief.
For God neither gave any proof nor made any sign, but there were only bare words promising such things as nature did not hold out any hopes of. Yet still he says, he staggered not. He does not say, He did not disbelieve, but, He staggered not, that is, he neither doubted nor hesitated though the hindrances were so great. From this we learn, that if God promise even countless impossibilities, and he that hears does not receive them, it is not the nature of things that is to blame, but the unreasonableness of him who receives them not. But was strong in faith. See the pertinacity of Paul. For since this discourse was about them that work and them that believe, he shows that the believer works more than the other, and requires more power, and great strength, and sustains no common degree of labor. For they counted faith worthless, as having no labor in it. Insisting then upon this, he shows that it is not only he that succeeds in temperance, or any other virtue of this sort, but he that displays faith also who requires even greater power. For as the one needs strength to beat off the reasonings of intemperance, so has the faithful also need of a soul endued with power, that he may thrust aside the suggestions of unbelief. How then did he become strong? By trusting the matter, he replies, to faith and not to reasonings: else he had fallen. But how came he to thrive in faith itself? By giving glory to God, he says.
The one who is has faith always has works in the sustaining of that faith, but justification is a grace given to faith alone, as St. John Chrysostom taught in Romans 4:1-2
he does not here say «grace,» but «superabundance of grace.» For it was not as much as we must have to do away the sin only, that we received of His grace, but even far more. For we were at once freed from punishment, and put off all iniquity, and were also born again from above John 3:3 and rose again with the old man buried, and were redeemed, justified, led up to adoption, sanctified, made brothers of the Only-begotten, and joint heirs and of one Body with Him, and counted for His Flesh, and even as a Body with the Head, so were we united unto Him! All these things then Paul calls a «superabundance» of grace, showing that what we received was not a medicine only to countervail the wound, but even health, and comeliness, and honor, and glory and dignities far transcending our natural state.But if you read romans 5:12-21 In John chrysostom you will notice he understands adam’s sin and god’s righteousness to be forensic
I cant see how you can posit that St. John Chyrsostom views Adam’s sin as forensic when he may not have had an Augustinian view of Original sin, but one more inline with the Orthodox view of Ancestral sin.But if you read romans 5:12-21 In John chrysostom you will notice he understands adam’s sin and god’s righteousness to be forensic