Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

[itsjustdave1988]

imroc:

…Predestination is garbage and implies that we are slaves of God with absolutely no free will

I recommend you study the Catholic understanding of predestination further. See post #24 above.

"… faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death … " (Council of Valence III, AD 855, Denzinger 322)

 

[imroc]

I’m sorry, I should’ve clarified my stance on predestination. The “predestination” that I refer to in my previous reply is not that of which the Church teaches. Rather, it’s the misunderstood predestination:

*In the second passage Calvin states his doctrine of predestination: God has foreknowledge of all that will happen; all humans sin and deserve only condemnation, but God has pre-ordained, at the beginning of time, who it is that He will graciously save–in Calvin’s words, *

This teaching is what I refer to. Sorry for the misunderstanding, please find it in your heart to forgive my lack of clarification

God Bless !*

 

[cynic]

BryPGuy89:

What, to take an easy way out of sin and guilt, is good? To end your own life rather then take the responsibility of one’s actions.

considering that he would known that he was going to hell, then It wouldn’t have seemed like an easy way out. Perhaps you’re right though, he would have rather offered himself up for judgement straight away rather than spend a lifetime in fearful anticipation of it.

 

[freesoulhope]

Hell? Heaven? Who knows. I will say this though. I dont like the thought of anybody going to hell for eternity, even the most evilest man. If there is even a chance that an evil man will change and turn to God in thier life time, then i prey that they will.

Judas is in a bad way, the odds are against him, it trully would be better if he had never been born. I cannot even begin to speculate.( hell is a horrible thing even though they derserve it, I dont think God smiles and luaghs at the thought.

Im preying, because if there is even one chance that he could be saved, short of taking his place, i prey that the lord has mercy! If theres no hope for him, then it is only justice at work, and who can argue agaisn’t that?

 

[doomhammer]

itsjustdave1988:

we can hope that all mankind can be saved

Apokatastasis was solemnly condemned (Liber Adeversus Origenes).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

doomhammer:

itsjustdave1988:

we can hope that all mankind can be saved

Apokatastasis was solemnly condemned (Liber Adeversus Origenes).

LOLl!!! You haven’t read many of my posts, have you?

We can have hope that all mankind will be saved (not, as you presumed, saved after going to hell, which is the condemned teaching of apokatastasis). I recommend you read the following…

The Population of Hell
by Avery Cardinal Dulles

The most sophisticated theological argument against the conviction that some human beings in fact go to hell has been proposed by Hans Urs von Balthasar in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved?” He rejects the ideas that hell will be emptied at the end of time and that the damned souls and demons will be reconciled with God. He also avoids asserting as a fact that everyone will be saved. But he does say that we have a right and even a duty to hope for the salvation of all, because it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God’s grace to repent before they die. He concedes, however, that the opposite is also possible. Since we are able to resist the grace of God, none of us is safe. We must therefore leave the question speculatively open, thinking primarily of the danger in which we ourselves stand.

At one point in his book Balthasar incorporates a long quotation from Edith Stein, now Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, who defends a position very like Balthasar’s. Since God’s all-merciful love, she says, descends upon everyone, it is probable that this love produces transforming effects in their lives. To the extent that people open themselves to that love, they enter into the realm of redemption. On this ground Stein finds it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance. Balthasar says that he agrees with Stein.

This position of Balthasar seems to me to be orthodox. It does not contradict any ecumenical councils or definitions of the faith. It can be reconciled with everything in Scripture, at least if the statements of Jesus on hell are taken as minatory rather than predictive.

…It is unfair and incorrect to accuse…Balthasar…of teaching that no one goes to hell. They grant that it is probable that some or even many do go there, but they assert, on the ground that God is capable of bringing any sinner to repentance, that we have a right to hope and pray that all will be saved. The fact that something is highly improbable need not prevent us from hoping and praying that it will happen. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved’ (1 Timothy 2:4)” (*CCC §1821). At another point the Catechism declares: “The Church prays that no one should be lost” (*CCC §1058).

 

[doomhammer]

itsjustdave1988:

LOLl!!! You haven’t read many of my posts, have you?
We can have hope that all mankind will be saved (not, as you presumed, saved after going to hell, which is the condemned teaching of apokatastasis). I recommend you read the following…

The Population of Hell
by Avery Cardinal Dulles

Well, I try to read all the posts, but I admit that I do not have much time to do that.
Your posts are very good and I like them. I thank you for the link and I’m going to print the article by Avery Cardinal Dulles and going to read it. I’ll comment on later.
With regard to this quote:
“The most sophisticated theological argument against the conviction that some human beings in fact go to hell has been proposed by Hans Urs von Balthasar in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved?” He rejects the ideas that hell will be emptied at the end of time and that the damned souls and demons will be reconciled with God. He also avoids asserting as a fact that everyone will be saved. But he does say that we have a right and even a duty to hope for the salvation of all…”
I find it quite contradictory. For example the last sentence: “a duty to hope for the salvation of all”.
Who is “all”? If “all” refers to the living and the dead, apokatastasis is still a risk. If “all” refers only to the living is quite irrelevant…. As we know the “hatred of God” is in progress, apostasy is in progress. There is no difference between present times and past times, people go to heaven or hell, as it has been always. Take the Book of Revelations, the book of the last times, what do we see there? Large amount of people going to hell. Is that a failure? Not at all. Hell also reveals God’s mercy.

 

[doomhammer]

itsjustdave1988:

I recommend you read the following…

The Population of Hell
by Avery Cardinal Dulles

thank you, i found the article very interesting. in fact, it reaffirms my point of view of considering Hans Urs von Balthasar as a minor theologian.
the position of the church (through scriptures and theologians) has been the same during thousand of years: many go to hell, judas is in hell.

 

[freesoulhope]

This is a very deep thread. it makes me think about the posibility of hell and about going to purgotory. Will purgortory be a temporary hell? im not too familia with the idea.

 

[cynic]

doomhammer:

the position of the church (through scriptures and theologians) has been the same during thousand of years: many go to hell, judas is in hell.

as long as you’re not one of the many eh?

 

[doomhammer]

cynic:

as long as you’re not one of the many eh?

“Let it not overcome me, my God. Let not flesh and blood conquer me. Let not the world and its brief glory deceive me, nor the devil trip me by his craftiness. Give me courage to resist, patience to endure, and constancy to persevere.”
Kempis (1380-1471)

 

[BryPGuy89]

cynic:

considering that he would known that he was going to hell, then It wouldn’t have seemed like an easy way out. Perhaps you’re right though, he would have rather offered himself up for judgement straight away rather than spend a lifetime in fearful anticipation of it.

Why would he go to hell if he didn’t take his life? He would have been able to repent and turn back to Jesus. God knew that Judas was going to take his life, thus would be hell bound.

 

[jim1130]

imroc:

Predestination is garbage and implies that we are slaves of God with absolutely no free will. Sounds rather, Islamic…huh?

Peace.

I thought is sounded Calvinistic.

Peace.

 

[jim1130]

freesoulhope:

This is a very deep thread. it makes me think about the posibility of hell and about going to purgotory. Will purgortory be a temporary hell? im not too familia with the idea.

Peace.

Purgatory is a process, a process of cleansing us completely of sin because sin cannot be before God. Purgatory is not a place. I can understand the confusion.

“Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.”

Peace.

 

[freesoulhope]

Thanks for the anwser. Now i can go out there and do some real apolegetics!

 

[look3467]

Judas is a partner with Christ, as well as the high priests.

The understanding of the “Old” Covenant as given by Moses is that there is but one God and Father by which Israel can go to.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Moses represents the “Law” and the law condemns.

So under the law if a Jew, was subject to the requirements of the law and the covenants made to them between God and them.

Deu 13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Here we have those who in their minds are right with God when they adhere to the voice of the Lord their God. (They are righteous)

Dan 3:29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

And they said: Jesus made Himself equal with God”?

They accused Jesus of blaspheming**?**

Was Judas truly convinced that Jesus was this true Messiah? Or was he still influenced by the law of Moses, as many others were and are still to this day.?

Jesus could “not” be offered as **“a sacrificial lamb” ** by the non-other then the ones who God instituted to do sacrifices. (High Priest)

So, by divine institution, the Jews had to, not “see” Christ as the Messiah in order that He might be offered up as a sacrifice for “all” mankind.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them

.

The objective:

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The righteous ones where merely following what the Father r wanted them to do, in which they gladly complied. (**Not knowingly ** of course) that’s why Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

The good news is: Jesus died for all mankind, and we who know that should live unto Him.

Love our Lord our God with all our hearts, mind, and soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Is there anything else?NO! Because Jesus did it all.

What we do with that, is to our benefit, or our demise.

So, Choose this day of which it is.

2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

There you have it!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi all, especially itsjustdave1988.

A couple of minor thoughts.

The Greek NT carries two words which are translated will.
βουλος: to will in a commanding way
θελεμα: to will without commanding – eg. a limited “wish”
these are the words that predestination swings on. So when reading the English translation, be aware that the Greek does specify what kind of “will” is meant in various passages.

Secondly: Don’t overlook that Judas was positively predestined:

Judas was predestined positively to the Church. That is – Jesus actually chose him to be a memeber of the 12.
Predestination, positive, does not have to be to heaven or hell.

I leave the rest of the consequenses for your entertainment

John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

P.S. my Greek spelling may not be perfect this afternoon…

βουλη ?
θελεμος ?

and I didn’t formally check all translations for whether or not some translate other words as will – also.