Was Mary really a virgin?

[JonNC]

Now you’re just insulting me. Is that charitable?

I’m characterizing the grouping of different communions together in the way sometimes done here as sophomoric. I stand by that characterization.
Be specific. Generalizations serve no positive purpose.

Hm? Are you admitting that Anglicans uphold Sola Scriptura? Do you also lump Anglicans with the Protestants?

Irrelevant to sola scriptura,'or Protestants. I was specific.

I personally wouldn’t generalize that far. But I don’t want to tell you what to believe.

That’s good to hear. I look forward to that change in apologia.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m characterizing the grouping of different communions together in the way sometimes done here as sophomoric. I stand by that characterization.
Be specific. Generalizations serve no positive purpose.

So, you’re not referring to me? Ok.

Hm? Are you admitting that Anglicans uphold Sola Scriptura? Do you also lump Anglicans with the Protestants?

Irrelevant to sola scriptura,'or Protestants. I was specific.

I didn’t bring up Anglicans. So, why’d you bring them up?

 

[JonNC]

So, you’re not referring to me? Ok.

You personally? No. Your comments seem to fall into that category. I don’t know you personally.

I didn’t bring up Anglicans. So, why’d you bring them up?

It’s what I am.

 

[7_Sorrows]

De_Maria:

JonNC:

Mostly not, depending on the topic. The sad thing is I think you’re aware of it. Being "mostly correct " means wrong about some.

Jon, I get the picture. You don’t like my apologetics. Can we get back on topic, now?

Do you have anything to prove that Sola Scripturists embrace the virginity of Mary? Do you have anything to prove that Sola Scripturists deny that Mary had other children, brothers to Christ?

If you do, provide the evidence.

Which sola scripturists. Part of the fallacy is the grouping of communions together in a sophomoric way.
Anglicans have a very strong Mariology. The BoC mentions her semper virgo status. It comes down to not making generalities where none should be made.

Could you explain BoC? My brain must be working slow tonight. What does that stand
for?

 

[JonNC]

Could you explain BoC? My brain must be working slow tonight. What does that stand

for?

Sorry. Book of Concord. It is the Lutheran confessions. I was referring to this:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.

 

[7_Sorrows]

7_Sorrows:

Could you explain BoC? My brain must be working slow tonight. What does that stand

for?

Sorry. Book of Concord. It is the Lutheran confessions. I was referring to this:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.

Don’t the Lutherans also have the Augsburg Confession? I guess I have never heard of the Book of Concord.

 

[James817]

Couldn’t Mary’s sister be referring to Salome instead of Mary of Clopas?

And as I’ve stated before, James, Joses, Judas and Simon were all common names. So there could very well be three different James guys to boot.

 

[JonNC]

Don’t the Lutherans also have the Augsburg Confession? I guess I have never heard of the Book of Concord.

Yes. The BoC includes all of the symbols of the Lutheran Tradition. It includes first the three creeds, the Augsburg Confession, The Small Catechism , etc

 

[7_Sorrows]

Okay. Thanks for the information. Sort of like the Book of Common Prayer in the
Episcopal church?

 

[JonNC]

Okay. Thanks for the information. Sort of like the Book of Common Prayer in the
Episcopal church?

Not really. The Nook of Vommon prayer is a liturgical book, focused on the Mass , lectionaries,etc. the BoC is more directed to teachings and doctrine.

BookOfConcord.org · The Original Home of the Book of Concord

More like the Catholic Catechism

 

[7_Sorrows]

Doesn’t the Book of Common Prayer also contain the Articles (13?) of Faith (not sure if that is what they are called) at the beginning?
I don’t have my old Book of Common Prayer handy so I can’t check.

 

[Cathoholic]

deondre:

.

can you provide any evidence that she remained a virgin and did not give birth to any children after?

.

Oral Tradition.

But you are asking for Biblical citations.

One of my go-to verses for this actually is a “go-to” verse to attack the Blessed Virgin Mary (until they have thought about the verse).

.

MARK 6:3 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?"

.

Note what is NOT said . . . .

. . . . . “Is not this . . . . ONE OF Mary’s SONS?”

.

Now note what IS said . . .

. . . . “Is not this . . . . THE SON OF Mary?”

What does this verse actually suggest?

It suggests Jesus is the ONLY SON of Mary although Jesus has MANY “brothers” and many “sisters”.

But we KNOW “brothers” and “sisters” in a Hebrew culture, have a plethora or overabundance of meanings.

Admittedly “soft evidence” but if you want I have much more. MUCH more.

When these things are taken all together, the evidence for the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is overwhelming in my opinion.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, the 39 articles are in the back

 

[JonNC]

Admittedly “soft evidence” but if you want I have much more. MUCH more.

It isn’t soft, not compared to what little evidence there is for the position that she had other children

 

[lilypadrees]

Yes, Mary was a virgin and remained one after giving birth to Jesus.

James was one of Our Lord’s cousins. Jesus had no biological siblings.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

So, you’re not referring to me? Ok.

You personally? No. Your comments seem to fall into that category.

Then you were insulting me.

I don’t know you personally.

Non sequitur. I don’t know you personally either, yet you have repeatedly claimed that I was insulting you.

It’s what I am.

I didn’t claim that you weren’t.

What I see is that you called my comment “sophomoric” and then insinuated that I was somehow including Anglicans amongst Protestants who believe in Sola Scriptura and deny the perpetual virginity of Mary.

That is known as the false argument of “straw man”.

Image result for straw man argument
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”.
Straw man - Wikipedia

Straw man - Wikipedia

And you can add to that “ad hominem”.

Ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of …
Ad hominem - Wikipedia

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

 

[JonNC]

Then you were insulting me.

I don’t know you, and I have no attacked you personally. There has been no ad hominem, by definition. I don’t even think you had uttered an ad hominem.
The only straw man I’ve seen is the use of generalizations to bind together the varying beliefs of different groups as if they are one, then knocking down a generalized belief.
It is analogous to making generalizations about all South Americans despite the obvious differences between Brazilians and Argentinians and Bolivians, etc. Sola Scripturist is not a group or communion.

Non sequitur. I don’t know you personally either, yet you have repeatedly claimed that I was insulting you.

Source. I said that to dispute what someone else believes by telling them they believe something different is uncharitable.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

I was taught in my church growing up that James was the brother of Jesus

Please cite the applicable verse(s) that teach this, and then I can go from there.

If this is the verse

Gal_1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Then that is not a proof text in light of the enumeration of the Apostles according to the Gospels as follows:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

As you see, James cannot possibly be the actually blood sibling of Jesus.

 

[De_Maria]

I said that to dispute what someone else believes by telling them they believe something different is uncharitable.

You’ve said it repeatedly and you’ve yet to prove that claim. And again, I’ve asked you to explain why you insinuated that I lumped Anglicans with Protestants who believe SS and deny the perpetual virginity.

What I see is that you called my comment “sophomoric” and then insinuated that I was somehow including Anglicans amongst Protestants who believe in Sola Scriptura and deny the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Did you or did not say that:

Which sola scripturists. Part of the fallacy is the grouping of communions together in a sophomoric way.

Anglicans have a very strong Mariology. The BoC mentions her semper virgo status. It comes down to not making generalities where none should be made.

Let’s break that down to make sure I understood it correctly.

You said, "Which sola scripturists."

In other words, instructing me to be specific.

Then you said, “Part of the fallacy is the grouping of communions together in a sophomoric way.”

Clearly insulting me and claiming that I was throwing communions together haphazardly.

Then you said, “Anglicans have a very strong Mariology.”

Clearly insinuating that I had thrown this communion into the mix, somewhere. You need to prove that. Or you need to admit that it is you grouping communions together in a sophomoric way.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I guess my number was off. Yes, 39 articles.