Was Mohammed a Sinner?

[inJESUS]

Emad:

inJESUS:

Well if you want to call a mistake a sin fine, but according to Islams definition of sins he didn’t sin, and I don’t care what you say, until you list one Islamic rule that he broke he isn’t sinful according to islams definition of sins.

no i don’t want to call anything…dhanb according to quran is something punishable and worthy of hell…Alllah used the same word while refering to mohammad and in mohammad’s words, he used the word “khati’a” and you know perfectly well that khati’a = sin and not ghalta or dhalla ( mistake)…Am sure if allah intended to talk about mistakes, he could have used a different word…arabic language is rich. Hence, dhanb= sin.

but i’ll go further than that and pretend to accept your logic : call it whatever you want : sin, mistake, wrong-doing or anything : still it is something that Allah does NOT approve of, which is my point. No matter what it is, even if it were eating some cheese, well : Allah disapproved and it is enough to say that mohammad did something that Allah did not approve of.

 

[whatevergirl]

Oh my…this thread is still going strong! LOL

 

[Emad]

inJESUS:

Emad:

inJESUS:

no i don’t want to call anything…dhanb according to quran is something punishable and worthy of hell…Alllah used the same word while refering to mohammad and in mohammad’s words, he used the word “khati’a” and you know perfectly well that khati’a = sin and not ghalta or dhalla ( mistake)…Am sure if allah intended to talk about mistakes, he could have used a different word…arabic language is rich. Hence, dhanb= sin.

but i’ll go further than that and pretend to accept your logic : call it whatever you want : sin, mistake, wrong-doing or anything : still it is something that Allah does NOT approve of, which is my point. No matter what it is, even if it were eating some cheese, well : Allah disapproved and it is enough to say that mohammad did something that Allah did not approve of.

I never said Muhammad deserved paradise. Even he said he will only enter by Gods Mercy. Also there is a saying in Islam “The good deeds of the normal people are the sins of the Righteous” Meaning everyone is at different levels and everyone has their own categories of what they should do and shouldn’t do. Muhammad peace be upon him made mistakes and Allah corrected him for that. However Muhammad never made a sin that he told others not to do. He never told others not to lie and lied. He never told anyone not to cheat and cheated himself. His mistakes and “sins” are on his own level. They aren’t anything that is considered a sin according to Islams definition of a sin. Until you point out the sin he did I will no longer respond because we are going in circles. I am not saying Muhammad peace be upon him was perfect, but he certainly didn’t break any of the Islamic rules.

 

[whatevergirl]

Emad:

inJESUS:

Emad:

I never said Muhammad deserved paradise. Even he said he will only enter by Gods Mercy. Also there is a saying in Islam “The good deeds of the normal people are the sins of the Righteous” Meaning everyone is at different levels and everyone has their own categories of what they should do and shouldn’t do. Muhammad peace be upon him made mistakes and Allah corrected him for that. However Muhammad never made a sin that he told others not to do. He never told others not to lie and lied. He never told anyone not to cheat and cheated himself. His mistakes and “sins” are on his own level. They aren’t anything that is considered a sin according to Islams definition of a sin. Until you point out the sin he did I will no longer respond because we are going in circles. I am not saying Muhammad peace be upon him was perfect, but he certainly didn’t break any of the Islamic rules.

HI EMAD! Welcome back

I am wondering though, would you say that Islam is based on a more subjective set of values, than objective? I think we might be getting somewhere now. I want to understand, because when discussing with others that I might meet, I was to intelligently make sense. (the best I can not knowing your faith) But, someone was saying that he murdered someone…I mean, that’s more than a mistake…my point is that Mohammed, since he is human, is a sinner…like we all are. Why is it bad for his followers to say this of him? Like I said…Jews admit that Abraham was a sinner.

So–again–he would be on the same level as Allah…if we claim he is not a sinner, no?

Help–! LOL

 

[Emad]

whatevergirl:

Emad:

inJESUS:

HI EMAD! Welcome back

I am wondering though, would you say that Islam is based on a more subjective set of values, than objective? I think we might be getting somewhere now. I want to understand, because when discussing with others that I might meet, I was to intelligently make sense. (the best I can not knowing your faith) But, someone was saying that he murdered someone…I mean, that’s more than a mistake…my point is that Mohammed, since he is human, is a sinner…like we all are. Why is it bad for his followers to say this of him? Like I said…Jews admit that Abraham was a sinner.

So–again–he would be on the same level as Allah…if we claim he is not a sinner, no?

Help–! LOL

I am not claiming that he was not a sinner, but his sins are at his own level and aren’t really considered sins. Also Muhammad peace be upon him never killed anyone unjustly. He lived 13 years in Mecca being persecuted him and his followers and not one Muslim was allowed to fight anyone. However when they migrated to Medina they were a community and had to defend themselves. The first of those killed in Islamic history was during the Battle of Badr, which took place on the outskirts of Medina and the non-Muslims came to fight the Muslims. If someone came to your city to fight you wouldn’t you fight back?

 

[jonfan]

whatevergirl:

Hi Emad–

Are you saying that Mohammed, being a mere human being, is on the same level as God? (God being sinless) Jews do not think Abraham is sinless. He was their prophet…but not sinless.

Mohammed was not Divine, so does your faith place him on the same level as God/Allah?

If you say he was sinless…you are saying is God-like, no?

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a “false analogy.”

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a “false analogy.”

List for me the sin Muhammad or any Prophet did according to Islams defintion of sin.

 

[jonfan]

Ok. Now we are getting into another topic which is to verify the authenticity of Islam. This is where our belief systems differ. I mean no offense to you Emad. You seem like a pretty cool guy to me.
The problem is that Islam can not define sin because Islam holds no Divine Authority.
History proves that before Islam came into existence the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon god who married the sun goddess and gave birth to three goddesses. They were called Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat. They later became idols and they were then worshipped in that part of the world as “The Daughters of Allah”.
The moon God was just one of 360 idols in the Kabah * in Mecca.
The Crescent moon is everywhere in Islam. Even Ramadan begins and ends with the Crescent moon.
Muhammed wanted to create his own religion. He needed the backing of his powerful tribe so he picked the “moon god” which they worshipped to be the one god and he declared himself to be Allah’s prophet.
In the 1950’s a major temple to the moon god was excavated at Hazor in Palenstine. two idols of the moon god were found proving that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan diety.
Muhammed combined judeao and christian teachings into prose and wrote the Quran. It is based on the old and new testament but does not represent what Christians know as God.
So to me the Quran is not an accurate moral compass which can define sin.
Take care,
Jon

 

[whatevergirl]

jonfan:

Ok. Now we are getting into another topic which is to verify the authenticity of Islam. This is where our belief systems differ. I mean no offense to you Emad. You seem like a pretty cool guy to me.
The problem is that Islam can not define sin because Islam holds no Divine Authority.
History proves that before Islam came into existence the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon god who married the sun goddess and gave birth to three goddesses. They were called Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat. They later became idols and they were then worshipped in that part of the world as “The Daughters of Allah”.
The moon God was just one of 360 idols in the Kabah * in Mecca.
The Crescent moon is everywhere in Islam. Even Ramadan begins and ends with the Crescent moon.
Muhammed wanted to create his own religion. He needed the backing of his powerful tribe so he picked the “moon god” which they worshipped to be the one god and he declared himself to be Allah’s prophet.
In the 1950’s a major temple to the Moon God was excavated at Hazor in Palenstine. two idols of the moon god were found proving that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan diety.
Muhammed combined judeao and christian teachings into prose and wrote the Quran. It is based on the old and new testament but does not represent what Christians know as God.
So to me the Quran is not an accurate moral compass which can define sin.
Take care,
Jon

I am truly fascinated now…seriously. That was a great ‘recap’ jonfan.

Wow–I kind of knew (through a few of my Muslim friends) that Mohammed ‘created’ his own religion…Hmmm

If he did, and handed down his own teachings, then I suppose he wouldn’t be considered a sinner from that standpoint…which always begs the question…are Muslims following objective morality, or subjective? If it’s subjective, it’s based on the subject, Mohammed in this case. If it’s objective, it would be based on Allah.

Since there is one God–he would have had to hand down a set of basic principles (10 Comandments) for ALL faiths to subscribe to…no?

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

Ok. Now we are getting into another topic which is to verify the authenticity of Islam. This is where our belief systems differ. I mean no offense to you Emad. You seem like a pretty cool guy to me.
The problem is that Islam can not define sin because Islam holds no Divine Authority.
History proves that before Islam came into existence the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon god who married the sun goddess and gave birth to three goddesses. They were called Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat. They later became idols and they were then worshipped in that part of the world as “The Daughters of Allah”.
The moon God was just one of 360 idols in the Kabah * in Mecca.
The Crescent moon is everywhere in Islam. Even Ramadan begins and ends with the Crescent moon.
Muhammed wanted to create his own religion. He needed the backing of his powerful tribe so he picked the “moon god” which they worshipped to be the one god and he declared himself to be Allah’s prophet.
In the 1950’s a major temple to the moon god was excavated at Hazor in Palenstine. two idols of the moon god were found proving that Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan diety.
Muhammed combined judeao and christian teachings into prose and wrote the Quran. It is based on the old and new testament but does not represent what Christians know as God.
So to me the Quran is not an accurate moral compass which can define sin.
Take care,
Jon

Jon can’t you think of your own garbage? You have to borrow other peoples garbage? Why don’t you list your source? This is another answeringIslam piece. I found the same exact thing on this site (Also the word Allah is found in the Arabic Bible and Arab Christians use it to refer to God.) :

originaldissent.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7596.html
This one:
christdot.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=246
This one and many more
trueministrieschurch.org/america_the_free_online.htm

And here is a lengthy and great refutation of Mr Robert Mooreys Moon God myth whom you plagarised it from.

islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html (would you care to refute this whole article on your own?)

Enjoy, now get back on topic!!

 

[Emad]

whatevergirl:

Since there is one God–he would have had to hand down a set of basic principles (10 Comandments) for ALL faiths to subscribe to…no?

The Ten Commandments are in the Quran, not the same order but they are listed in it. We have much in common, but few care to see that. They are only looking to copy/paste stuff from anti-Islamic sites sigh.

 

[jonfan]

Emad:

The Ten Commandments are in the Quran, not the same order but they are listed in it. We have much in common, but few care to see that. They are only looking to copy/paste stuff from anti-Islamic sites sigh.

no Copy/Paste Emad… Only the facts.

God bless,
Jon

P.S.: I don’t go on anti-anything sites. Those sites are biased and you will not find truth

 

[jonfan]

Emad:

The Ten Commandments are in the Quran, not the same order but they are listed in it. We have much in common, but few care to see that. They are only looking to copy/paste stuff from anti-Islamic sites sigh.

You see that is the whole point. They are not the same God or commandments. It is a slagged version of the truth. Why would Allah need to rewrite his own law? If Allah is not flawed then there is a paradox here.


God Bless,
Jon

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

no Copy/Paste Emad… Only the facts.

God bless,
Jon

P.S.: I don’t go on anti-anything sites. Those sites are biased and you will not find truth

list your source and refute the article I posted on your own if it is false.

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

You see that is the whole point. They are not the same God or commandments. It is a slagged version of the truth. Why would Allah need to rewrite his own law? If Allah is not flawed then there is a paradox here.


God Bless,
Jon

Because people changed them so he sent them again. Now please get back on topic.

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

no Copy/Paste

How can you say no copy/paste when I found the same thing almost word for word on more than one site? Did you forget…**Thou Shall NOT Lie. **

 

[jonfan]

What site? Show me the link where this is word for word? bottom line is Isalm is not true. Sorry. no offense.

 

[jonfan]

P.S.: These are known facts. I am curious what you have to refute these facts. If I am wrong about these “facts” then I stand corrected. Your go…

 

[jonfan]

Emad:

Because people changed them so he sent them again. Now please get back on topic.

I think the only person who changed them was muhammed.

As far as anti Muslim sites I do understand. It happens to us Catholics all the time. So maybe we have more in common in that area then we think. I do try not to resort to that sorta thing.
Peace be with you,
JOn

 

[pro_universal]

jonfan:

I think the only person who changed them was muhammed.

As far as anti Muslim sites I do understand. It happens to us Catholics all the time. So maybe we have more in common in that area then we think. I do try not to resort to that sorta thing.
Peace be with you,
JOn

Seriously, the Morey Moon God argument is so awful I can’t believe people waste electrons to reproduce it.

Try reading one of those “Allah-hubal” articles and looking up the footnotes sometime. It’s usually the case that cited sources say exactly the opposite of what Morey is claiming.

If you even say the word from the bible “Eloi”, you can hear the linguistic relationship to the word “Allah”.