T
tonyrey
Guest
In other words our purposes are arbitrary. If we believe there is no purpose for existence we are either fooling ourselves in pretending there is or making the best of a bad job by inventing reasons for living…
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C
Cheiron
Guest
Yes, I make up my own purpose. And I wouldn’t want it any other way. If there is a God who decides what my purpose in life is, then that would make me very, very unhappy. I want to be the captain of my own ship, of my own body.
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tonyrey
Guest
G
goout
Guest
For the same reason that some people who have met you don’t like you as well as others. In fact only one or two might love you deeply and truthfully. If the others really knew you, they should like you. But not everyone you meet has a fulfilling relationship with you. Not everyone knows you fully. Some people only grasp part of the truth of your being, your meaning, your purpose in life, who you are. Others know you much more fully.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
Alright let me try to unpack this, because I honestly don’t understand.
PC: How can you think your religion is 100% true and others are not?
GT: Because my religion has the best relationship with God, and the others have a lesser relationship.
PC: How do you know that?
GT: [response here]
G
goout
Guest
First thing is I do not put a percentage on truth. If truth is a thing (actually person) to be known, then my experience of it depends on my ability to grasp it. Knowing the truth is not like completing a book and using photographic memory skills to absorb it 100%. I’ts more of a journey than an arrival at intellectual certainty.
It’s a relationship. Relationships have various degrees of integrity and knowledge. Relationships are communal not merely individual. Any person who says he knows absolute truth in a kingdom of 1 is probably off the rails.
The fullness of truth does not depend on the receiver of revelation.
What is true is true independently of me or you. If truth is lacking in my experience, it is not because it is not there to be found, it because I am a human being with limited ability to commit and trust. We tend to be skeptical and cautious.
True is not true because my mental and rational faculties are all the rage.
True is true because it is true. As I commit to seeking truth my commitment informs my faith, and my faith informs reason, and reason informs faith.
This is the stuff of relationship, not mere rationalism. Hence my example of how various people know you to varying degrees.
J
JapaneseKappa
Guest
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it sounds a lot like this:
GT: Because at this point I’ve journeyed too far down this path to turn back.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
There are some things which are thought (believed) to be real which can be considered “properly basic beliefs”. These unprovable things are ‘basically’ beyond question.
Eg. Did yesterday actually take place? Am I imagining what I see under the microscope? Is the elephant tail/trunk/ear which I am touching really real? Does my hunger prove the existence of food.
But when the answer to such BASIC (foundational) questions is yes, yes, and yes, it seems many methodological skeptics still insist on asking - over and over again - “how do you know that?”
#reformed_epistemology
/thread
Eg. Did yesterday actually take place? Am I imagining what I see under the microscope? Is the elephant tail/trunk/ear which I am touching really real? Does my hunger prove the existence of food.
But when the answer to such BASIC (foundational) questions is yes, yes, and yes, it seems many methodological skeptics still insist on asking - over and over again - “how do you know that?”
#reformed_epistemology
/thread
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goout
Guest
Can you address the discussion points?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Mathew 28:19
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
The word “catholic” means universal.
G
goout
Guest
Isn’t this a little like saying that
because I don’t a full relationship with every woman in the world, then true love doesn’t exist.
Your point doesn’t really work. You have suspicions like you say, but
for a religion to be universally accepted, every human being would have to be the same. But looking around us, we can see that every human being is unique, rather than the same. Having similarities does not mean we are not unique. This uniqueness is expressed in cultures and religions.
Human uniqueness does not disprove the existence of the full truth.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
I’m not sure I understand your analogy. How about this direct question:
What reason or evidence do I have to suppose that the relationship between Catholicism and the truth about the universe/God is absolutely reliable and pure, while all other religion’s/tradition’s relationship with the universe/God is lesser?
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tonyrey
Guest
To use your analogy God has created us as captains who can choose to be shipwrecked if we find an enticing island.
C
Cheiron
Guest
If the island proves to be a beautiful and interesting one, then being shipwrecked doesn’t sound so bad.To use your analogy God has created us as captains who can choose to be shipwrecked if we find an enticing island.
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goout
Guest
Catholicism has the fullness of faith. What does that mean?
Faith can be defined as God’s gift of himself to us, to which we respond. Call and response. Without one or the other, no faith. God is durable and reliable in doing his part as creator. Call and respond is a relationship not a proof.
You are asking for proof of certainty. If you take stock of the relationships in your life, you should find that this certainty is not really available in any relationship, yet you still have faith in other persons. There are no guarantees, yet we must have faith in others to the best of our ability.
So it seems to me, you must answer your question for yourself. If you don’t believe what the Church proposes, no one will prove you anything else.
How do you know that there is truth in relationships?
By response you come to know. And as you know you are able to respond more and more.
By persisting in doubt you do not come to know. Constantly testing your beloved does not allow a relationship to flower.
In any case, you have your beliefs in place. If you wholeheartedly commit to your beliefs, you are responding as you know how. So then God will work with a committed heart, even if that heart seems to be at odds with him (ref St Paul).
None of us know him with an “absolutely reliable and pure” heart, as you ask above. So you are in a large and diverse boat travelling to the same destination.
What are you concerned about, if you are pursuing God as you know how?
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
Alright let me try to boil this down into my language, just so I understand. You’re saying:
- God is calling everyone into a relationship with him, the perfection of this relationship is to be a Roman Catholic. Is that right?
- I’m going about this the wrong way, asking for reasons and evidence to believe that Catholicism is the exclusively correct religious tradition, because it ultimately rests upon faith, which is essentially a blind and arbitrary commitment. Is this correct?
- Sincerity of belief is more important than whether those beliefs are true or not. Is that right?
Are the following statements truths about reality?
If these statements are truths about reality, how can you suggest that alternative religious beliefs are anything less than an utter disaster?
If these statements are not truths about reality, then I guess we’re in agreement.
Also, how do I know whether or not you know if these statements are true? How do I know whether or not the people who made these statements in the first place know if they are true?
I love and trust my wife because she has given me no reason not to. I believe she is true to me because I live with her and believe in her love. I suppose it could all be a giant, well-hidden lie. I’m ok with that risk though, because I think it is unlikely.
I do not trust the Catholic Church because she has given me a list of thousands of reasons not to! I don’t believe she is true, because she can’t tell me how she knows the things she claims to know. She’s never once showed that she is any more special than any other religious tradition, and I lived with her for years. I suppose all of these crazy and somewhat contradictory claims about reality and God could be true. But, I’m OK with that risk though, because I think it is unlikely.
Here’s my concern: I like arguing with people about religion. I find it fun. It gives me a structured way to think about God. My wife is an “apatheist.” In other words, she has moved on, spiritually speaking. These questions are dead to her, but they’re not dead to me quite yet.
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goout
Guest
No, not exactly. The fullest expression of the truth exists somewhere, because God is true. Carrying a membership card is a different yet related thing.
Can you see the difference between pure being, the fullest expression of that being, and adherence to it by a person?
There are many who profess to have the truth but God does not know them. Still, he expresses himself somewhere.
Calling one’s self Catholic does not equate to perfect unity with God.
No it’s not correct.
Catholicism is not exclusively correct. That is your characterization, but not what I or anyone else said. The Church itself does not proclaim that.
And faith is never blind or arbitrary. Faith enlightens reason, reason enlightens faith. Faith is not blind stupidity, science need not be faithless. The two are well integrated in a whole person.
And this brings us to another truth: the critics of Catholic teaching, in almost all cases, do not begin to understand what they are criticizing. There are very few people who in actuality know what they are criticizing.
If you say so…Keep in mind: we believe the Church has the fullest expression of truth.
And you will reflexively object to this, but what can we expect? You do not believe objective and fullest expression of truth resides anywhere, so the discussion is moot.
You will also reflexively object that Catholic doctrines cannot be fully true because the understanding of them develop and seem contradictory, as shown by our expression of salvation through the Church. You will object that something that is true cannot develop. But you know that is not true. All created things develop.
Here’s the key concept: The Church is an interaction between the divine and the human. God is God, human beings are human. Human beings do not and cannot comprehend God fully. We cannot comprehend God fully because he is God and there is always the element of unapproachable mystery.
But in the seed that is the kingdom of God, all truth grows. We understand it more fully as we move. Do you agree truth is expressed somewhere? Or do you propose that God is mute?
The Church does not believe that. Why do you mischaracterize what the Church teaches? You do not understand what you are objecting to, and you spend a lot of time doing it. How can that be productive?
Maybe in the same way you insist they are not true…
Good stuff, that faith.
I personally apologize for the negligence and cruelty of the people you have encountered who are Catholic.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
OK, so is belief Roman Catholicism a necessary but not sufficient condition for a person to have the fullest possible relationship with God or not?
If Catholicism is not exclusively correct, which other religions are equally acceptable? Also, which things about Catholicism are in error? If the choice isn’t arbitrary, by what means are we to choose a religious belief?
Yes, others on this website have suggested I am “poorly catechized.” Unfortunately, the meaning of “Catholicism” is so different depending upon place and time, you’d probably think many Church fathers, popes, and saints were similarly poorly catechized, depending on the century/country. In grad school I used to argue with the Dominicans near campus. They didn’t seem to think I was poorly catechized. I’ve also had extensive arguments with priests from the Oratory, they also never suggested I was poorly catechized. I’m not sure which sub-culture of the Church you identify with, but if you tell me, I can try to speak your language to the best of my ability.And this brings us to another truth: the critics of Catholic teaching, in almost all cases, do not begin to understand what they are criticizing. There are very few people who in actuality know what they are criticizing.
No, I do believe the objective and fullest expression of the truth is “out there” somewhere. What you need to do is give me some evidence or reason to suppose that truth is actually in your understanding of the RCC. You need to show me it is God’s official religion. Can you do this?
Can something be true yesterday and false today and properly to be considered “absolutely true?” To me, absolute truths do not change depending upon the circumstances, and time is a circumstance.
I’m not sure if God is mute or not. I suppose we discover something about him through reason and the observation of nature. How do you know that the Church is an interaction between the divine and the human in a way that (for instance) Islam is not?
So, the first quote is the opening of the Athanasian creed. Do you deny that it is a statement of the church? Why? How do I know that you know?
The second quote is by Pope Boniface VIII. It certainly seems to qualify as an “infallible” teaching, just by looking at it and considering it in the context of the historical teachings of many official churchmen for hundreds of years prior. If it isn’t an infallible proclamation, why? How do I know that you know?
I object because those statements are 1) unreasonable and 2) I have no reason to suppose the Catholic Church or any of her representatives is either more competent or more entitled to be taken seriously when they make such statements. To me, statements of the Church, or any other religion, and these statements (below) are peers.Maybe in the same way you insist they are not true…
Good stuff, that faith.
I personally apologize for the negligence and cruelty of the people you have encountered who are Catholic.
Is that why you reject them too? Somehow I doubt it, purely based on the religion you claim on this website. Obviously, I know nothing about you otherwise.
It’s not your responsibility to apologize for the actions of people who died centuries ago. I appreciate the thought though!
G
goout
Guest
You have so many questions about the Catholic faith and just being honest, as a working person I cannot spare the time to address them all. The Church has a compendium of it’s teaching in it’s Catechism. It addresses all these questions and a lot more.
It’s up to you to pursue it or you can simply object without investigation. The fact that this all concerns you is a good thing. Others never give it a thought. So good for you. But I think if you are going to object to something, you should have honest objections on the real content of the faith, not on misconceptions of it.
Here’s a link.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
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PumpkinCookie
Guest
Quitting my job and starting my own businesses, though it has been financially and emotionally challenging, has been the best decision I’ve ever made. Life as someone else’s employee can be great in many ways: but if you value the freedom to argue with strangers on the internet sometimes: owning your own business is the way to go!
I understand you don’t have time to answer the questions, that’s OK. No worries.
You wouldn’t believe me if I told you that I have studied the 1993 Catechism extensively and in depth. Every night I would read several pages as well as much of the source documentation they reference (what I could find in English or a modern language). I’ve also studied other catechisms, writings of church fathers and theologians, non-canonical scriptures, church documents of various sorts, most of Trent, most of Vatican 2, most of the Catholic Encyclopedia, large sections of the Summa, and dozens of saints/doctors/blesseds. I’ve been to shrines, I’ve seen famous relics, and I personally know famous clergy and priests. I’ve assisted at the ordination of a Bishop, know several Cardinals, and have personally funded Catholic missionaries and the organization that runs this website. Members of my family have degrees in theology from prestigious Catholic schools, and famous theologians attended the baptisms of my nieces and nephews. My parish priest when I was a child is now quite well-known, that’s all I can say about that.
I know many versions of Catholicism. It’s just that, none of them seem true to me. They all seem…invented by man.
I know, I know, people like me aren’t supposed to exist. But we do, there are lots of us. Many of the people who reject Catholicism know it quite thoroughly. That’s the first thing you learn as you walk out the door.
- Status