Was religion invented by man?

[tonyrey]

*To use your analogy God has created us as captains who can choose to be shipwrecked if we find an enticing island. *

If the island proves to be a beautiful and interesting one, then being shipwrecked doesn’t sound so bad. If the island proves to be a beautiful and interesting one, then being shipwrecked doesn’t sound so bad.

Being totally isolated or compelled to exist forever with other egoists must be rather depressing after a while…

 

[goout]

Quitting my job and starting my own businesses, though it has been financially and emotionally challenging, has been the best decision I’ve ever made. Life as someone else’s employee can be great in many ways: but if you value the freedom to argue with strangers on the internet sometimes: owning your own business is the way to go!

I understand you don’t have time to answer the questions, that’s OK. No worries.

You wouldn’t believe me if I told you that I have studied the 1993 Catechism extensively and in depth. Every night I would read several pages as well as much of the source documentation they reference (what I could find in English or a modern language). I’ve also studied other catechisms, writings of church fathers and theologians, non-canonical scriptures, church documents of various sorts, most of Trent, most of Vatican 2, most of the Catholic Encyclopedia, large sections of the Summa, and dozens of saints/doctors/blesseds. I’ve been to shrines, I’ve seen famous relics, and I personally know famous clergy and priests. I’ve assisted at the ordination of a Bishop, know several Cardinals, and have personally funded Catholic missionaries and the organization that runs this website. Members of my family have degrees in theology from prestigious Catholic schools, and famous theologians attended the baptisms of my nieces and nephews. My parish priest when I was a child is now quite well-known, that’s all I can say about that.

I know many versions of Catholicism. It’s just that, none of them seem true to me. They all seem…invented by man.

I know, I know, people like me aren’t supposed to exist. But we do, there are lots of us. Many of the people who reject Catholicism know it quite thoroughly. That’s the first thing you learn as you walk out the door.

Taking your questions at face value, you don’t know the faith. You know it on the surface. You object to a partial conception of it, or a superficial conception of it.

You have ideas you like better and it’s difficult to put down one’s lens and see things through new eyes. This applies to the Catholic Christian on our faith journey also.
No problem. At the end of the day we have to follow our conscience.

I don’t think real life agrees with you in your assertion that Catholicism’s detractors know what it’s about. I think very very few people who object to it understand it.

The atheists on this board definitely do not understand it. They object to straw men, or they object at the same level of thinking as fundamentalists. They object to the stereotyped caricatures of Catholicism. Oddly enough, Catholicism objects to fundamentalist Christianity also.

But, as someone once said about Christianity:
if your Christianity is admired and approved by the world, you’re probably not doing it right.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Taking your questions at face value, you don’t know the faith. You know it on the surface. You object to a partial conception of it, or a superficial conception of it.

You have ideas you like better and it’s difficult to put down one’s lens and see things through new eyes. This applies to the Catholic Christian on our faith journey also.
No problem. At the end of the day we have to follow our conscience.

I don’t think real life agrees with you in your assertion that Catholicism’s detractors know what it’s about. I think very very few people who object to it understand it.

The atheists on this board definitely do not understand it. They object to straw men, or they object at the same level of thinking as fundamentalists. They object to the stereotyped caricatures of Catholicism. Oddly enough, Catholicism objects to fundamentalist Christianity also.

But, as someone once said about Christianity:
if your Christianity is admired and approved by the world, you’re probably not doing it right.

I am familiar with the canned answers to my questions: I find them to be meaningless at best and spiritually, morally, and intellectually bankrupt at worst. I’m here looking for something I haven’t heard already.

I call it the “Sheen theory,” the idea that the vast majority of those who disagree with current Catholicism are merely Ill-informed. I suppose that might be true if you’re thinking about 1950s American Protestants. I don’t think it applies as well to the wider group of non-Christians.

I think many unpopular but highly ideological groups believe this about themselves. I’m a Libertarian for instance, and many Libertarians think it’s not a widely popular ideology because it is misunderstood. “If only more people knew about it, they would embrace it.” I don’t think that’s true either. I think most people just prefer some form of authoritarianism because they can’t imagine what they would do with more freedom.

I’m also a classical musician. Same thing here: if only more people really knew about it, they’d love it! I disagree with that too: people don’t like serious music because they have other kinds of music they enjoy that aren’t as demanding.

Oh boy, the “y’all hate me cuz I tell the truth” meme. (Last sentence). Westboro Baptists must be the most Christian then, I guess.

 

[goout]

I am familiar with the canned answers to my questions: I find them to be meaningless at best and spiritually, morally, and intellectually bankrupt at worst. I’m here looking for something I haven’t heard already.

I call it the “Sheen theory,” the idea that the vast majority of those who disagree with current Catholicism are merely Ill-informed.

Let’s just stop here.
With the best of good will to you, you are not well informed on Catholic theology.
It was pointed out in a couple of instances earlier. Sheen is right. It might be unpleasant, but it is true.
You happen to not be open to what the Catholic Church teaches. Ok, it’s all good. No one forces us to agree. You shouldn’t violate your conscience.

What then are you looking for, if not to understand a Catholic point of view?
The Catechism is referenced to you, and you say you have already digested and understand it. Only you demonstrate that you don’t, judging by the content of your own posts.

So then what is the point of all this? It seems like proselytizing to me.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Let’s just stop here.
With the best of good will to you, you are not well informed on Catholic theology.
It was pointed out in a couple of instances earlier. Sheen is right. It might be unpleasant, but it is true.
You happen to not be open to what the Catholic Church teaches. Ok, it’s all good. No one forces us to agree. You shouldn’t violate your conscience.

What then are you looking for, if not to understand a Catholic point of view?
The Catechism is referenced to you, and you say you have already digested and understand it. Only you demonstrate that you don’t, judging by the content of your own posts.

So then what is the point of all this? It seems like proselytizing to me.

OK.

Here is what I’m looking for: a reason to believe that the current version of Catholicism reflected in the 1993 Catechism is the truth about reality.

Can you give me a reason to believe this?

 

[davidv]

Alright let me try to boil this down into my language, just so I understand. You’re saying:

1. God is calling everyone into a relationship with him, the perfection of this relationship is to be a Roman Catholic. Is that right?

That is not right. The perfection of this relationship, is complete surrender of your will to his. The Catholic Church has the best set of information and tools to accomplish this.

1. I’m going about this the wrong way, asking for reasons and evidence to believe that Catholicism is the exclusively correct religious tradition, because it ultimately rests upon faith, which is essentially a blind and arbitrary commitment. Is this correct?

This is not correct. There is nothing blind nor arbitrary involved.

1. Sincerity of belief is more important than whether those beliefs are true or not. Is that right?

Only if that sincerity is accompanied by a relentless, unbiased pursuit of the truth.

Have you been reading a lot of Kierkegaard? Anyway, let me ask you this, and just go ahead and either affirm or deny.

Are the following statements truths about reality?

If these statements are truths about reality, how can you suggest that alternative religious beliefs are anything less than an utter disaster?

If these statements are not truths about reality, then I guess we’re in agreement.

Also, how do I know whether or not you know if these statements are true? How do I know whether or not the people who made these statements in the first place know if they are true?

I love and trust my wife because she has given me no reason not to. I believe she is true to me because I live with her and believe in her love. I suppose it could all be a giant, well-hidden lie. I’m ok with that risk though, because I think it is unlikely.

I do not trust the Catholic Church because she has given me a list of thousands of reasons not to! I don’t believe she is true, because she can’t tell me how she knows the things she claims to know. She’s never once showed that she is any more special than any other religious tradition, and I lived with her for years. I suppose all of these crazy and somewhat contradictory claims about reality and God could be true. But, I’m OK with that risk though, because I think it is unlikely.

Here’s my concern: I like arguing with people about religion. I find it fun. It gives me a structured way to think about God. My wife is an “apatheist.” In other words, she has moved on, spiritually speaking. These questions are dead to her, but they’re not dead to me quite yet.

 

[tonyrey]

OK.

Here is what I’m looking for: a reason to believe that the current version of Catholicism reflected in the 1993 Catechism is the truth about reality.

Can you give me a reason to believe this?

In the absence of any reason to the contrary it is a reasonable assumption. The onus is on the dissident to expose its error(s).

 

[PumpkinCookie]

In the absence of any reason to the contrary it is a reasonable assumption. The onus is on the dissident to expose its error(s).

Alright, so why does Catholicism stand by default, but Islam, Hinduism, or Deism do not?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Alright, so why does Catholicism stand by default, but Islam, Hinduism, or Deism do not?

This is a question that requires a book (maybe several books) to answer it.

I recommend starting with Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man, a superb history of the central role of Jesus Christ in human history.

I doubt there is a book on Islam, Hinduism, or Deism quite like it.

It was Chesterton’s favorite book among the many he wrote.