Was the burning of heretics justified?

[Mirdath]

Under torture, Cathars admitted to some pretty horrific crimes.

They signed confessions admitting to almost any and every perversity imaginable including murder, infanticide, witch-craft etc etc the list goes on and on and on.

If they were innocent as Mirdath suggests, then why under torture did they willingly and of their own hand sign to say they committed such barbaric and cruel acts themselves?

Because, oh I don’t know, they were being tortured? Torture is well known to make people say anything to try to get out of it or at least let it end. Only very rarely is that a true and accurate confession of misdeeds.

Do you seriously believe that every confession extracted by torture, whether in the Inquisition or before or after, is honest and true? I am speechless.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

Do you seriously believe that every confession extracted by torture, whether in the Inquisition or before or after, is honest and true? I am speechless.

People have integrity. It does not matter how much pain is applied they still have their integrity. A person of integrity will not sign a confession just to make pain go away.

So you admit that the Cathars lacked integrity?

So what sort of people were they that they lacked integrity?

 

[Publisher]

Mirdath posted:

People have integrity. It does not matter how much pain is applied they still have their integrity. A person of integrity will not sign a confession just to make pain go away.

So you admit that the Cathars lacked integrity?

So what sort of people were they that they lacked integrity?

Amazing!!! It’s so easy for “armchair inquisitors” to claim that having ones testicles crushed or being hung up by their hands while they are tied behind their backs thereby dislocatiing the arms from the sockets and perhaps the shoulders blades or having ones behind slowly roasted on a metal spiked slowly heated metal chair lacks integrty to say what they are being told to say to stop the pain!!!

I can see how the Inquisitors freely inflicted pain and so “guilt free”…anyone with integrity would speak the truth no matter how much pain they received…but a guilty person would confess!!!

I wonder who really lacked integrity…the innocent Cathar or the cruel heartless Inquisitor who acted in the name of God?

 

[Ahimsa]

Ahimsa posted:

His holiness the Dali lama is a man second only to his holiness the Pope.

He is a very spiritual and holy man. I do not see why his name is being raised to support unsustantiable arguements

My apologies. Allow me to summarize the previous posts: (1) You linked the Cathars to Buddhism (or quasi-Buddhism) by pointing to their vegetarianism; (2) I showed that that claim is questionable, since Buddhists are not essentially vegetarian; and (3) I used the Dalai Lama and the Buddha Himself as examples; thus (4) I posit that the Cathars were not measurably influenced by Buddhism, and (5) the Cathars were more likely influenced by groups like the Manicheans and possibly Islamic groups that believe in reincarnation (e.g., the Druze).

 

[Sixtus]

Publisher posted:

I wonder who really lacked integrity…the innocent Cathar or the cruel heartless Inquisitor who acted in the name of God?

But everybody knows the truth. So why do you question it?

I do not believe for one minute that holy men would have crushed the male anatomy. That is mere conjecture on your part. Where is your proof of that?

If you have no proof, then why do you lie just ot prove a point! I personally find it very sick of anyone who makes such sick allegations without proof. You say you are a Quaker. I had more respect for Society of Friends than that.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher posted:

But everybody knows the truth. So why do you question it?

I do not believe for one minute that holy men would have crushed the male anatomy. That is mere conjecture on your part. Where is your proof of that?

If you have no proof, then why do you lie just ot prove a point!

Do reasearch…find the answers for yourself…look at instuments of torture…read the accounts…“lie”?

“Integrity”…I won’t say anything else.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

Do reasearch…find the answers for yourself…look at instuments of torture…read the accounts…“lie”?

“Integrity”…I won’t say anything else.

There articles speak for the ideology they represent. so they will tell you anything you want to hear, anything that is except for the truth

I wont say anything else either

 

[Publisher]

Can’t resist…so when the records of torture conflict with your beliefs…it’s a lie?

See what’s stated in red…the color of the inquisition.

GOD AND IMMORTALITY

A Tribute to Meister Eckhart, the greatest amongst the Christian Mystics.

C 1996 Copyright by Yogi A- S. Narayana. 1441

Alexandra Avenue. Mississauga, Ontario. L5E 2A9, Canada

INTRODUCTION

This small book is a tribute to Meister Eckhart, from whom God nothing hid. It is inspired by the Franz Pfeiffer edition of Eckhart’s surviving writings, published at Leipzig in 1857.

The noble sage was the Archarya of the West, the greatest amongst the Christian mystics. In the years of 1325-6, suspicion of his teachings having been received, Nicolaus of Strassburg was appointed his special Inquisitor and his case came before the Inquisition in Venice. Meister Eckhart delivered his Protest before this body on the 24 January 1327. On the 13 February, Eckhart made his public declaration of orthodoxy in the Dominican Church at Cologne. This is the last date at which he has been known to be alive. The answer of the Inquisition to his appellation, refusing to accept it, is dated 22- February 1327- The author conjectures that the great Christian saint would have died sometime before that date.

In the view of this Yogi, Meister Eckhart was brutally interrogated by torture by the henchmen of the Holy Inquisition- The horrible interrogation, would have aimed at extracting from the saint a confession of being in league with the Devil, or being possessed by demons. A forced confession in this regard may be in the inner vaults of the Library Vaticanus.

This was a vicious interrogation by torture, and brutal mutilation, which may have lasted for several weeks. The torturers would have used thumb screws to crush the saint’s fingers and toes. They would have used the rake

3

to disjoint Eckhart’s limbs. The henchmen would have torn out his finger and toe nails with customized pliers.** They would have crashed the saint’s testicles with a pair of special pliers, custom designed for use by the henchmen of the holy Inquisition. They would have disjointed and broken his limbs, tortured him by fire, and crushed his fingers and toes with hammers and screws. The henchmen may have followed the prescribed procedure for silencing heretics. They may have detongued the saint, with a unique, lock type pair of pliers, especially designed for the holy Inquisition. They would have blinded him with glowing iron, after singeing his body. They would have pored boiling lead into the **saint’s ears and mouth, from whence there flowed some of the wisest and most inspired sayings in the history of the Christian faith. This Yogi contends that the great Christian saint died of torture and suffocation before 22 February of the same year. This means that the Inquisition-s refusal to accept his defence was retroactive.

The great Christian martyr may have been buried alive in the time-honoured tradition of the holy Inquisition: the dying saint may have been bricked alive into a wall of an ecclesiastic edifice, where the sage finally died of suffocation. Soon thereafter, Eckhart was excommunicated by the Bull of John XXII, dated 27, March 1329, which also would have been retroactive. These events led to one of the great literary tragedies of the Western World, the destruction of most of Eckhart’s inspired writings, and of most transcripts of his famous sermons and tractates. The subsequent eradication of the sage from the memory of Christendom

 

[Sixtus]

So what evidence is there?

Spurious information such as this speaks not for the truth but for the ideological perspectives of Publisher, Mirdath and Ahimsa

Well, I have amassed enough to prove conclusively that
Publisher Mirdath Ahimsa [and others] are working together ganging up on unsuspecting lone Catholics.

They are all saying the same thing.

They are all supporting each other. There may be others too!

The central tenet in what they are saying is that Catholics are evil and Cathars were innocent. It seems remarkable they are all singing from the same hymn sheet and they all just happen to be on line together at the same time hunting and preying on lone unsuspecting Catholics. What a coincidence?

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED THEY HAVE BEEN RUMBLED

 

[Sixtus]

So th espurious allegations are printed in a book.
What does that prove? How many other spurious allegations have been published. Publishing does not provide proof that something is absolutely correct.

To add spurious insult to fallous insult, the text does not state that the instrument was carried out only that ‘they would have’! That is a very clever play on semantics. It is intended to imply that something was right when in fact there is no evidence to suggest that was the case.

 

[Sixtus]

Eckhart von Hochheim and widely referred to as Meister Eckhart, was a German theologian, philosopher and mystic.

His writings strongly indicate that he was the creator of humanism, which we know contradicts Christianity. That is what no doubt came to the attention of the Inquisitors. His writings strongly suggest that he aspired to Hinduism and Buddhism, this is a strange mixture for a CatholicDominican Friar.

He was a major influence on Martin Luther an Austin friar… That is why his name is mentioned here.

Though Catholic, he is regarded by some as a patron saint of the birth of Protestantism. Among his works he preached on the presence of God in the human soul. But some of his teachings were of concern that they could lead people into moral error.

Contrary to the spurious article cited above and alleged tortures visited on him and the alleged manner of his death, it is not known how he died or where, nor where he was buried.

Catholics can cite the many cruelties that were visited on innocent friars, others including women and children during the Reformation. It is widely regarded by non-Catholic sources and well documented that Catholics faired much worse in the Protestant Inquisition than did Protestants under Catholic Inquistion.

We could cite similar barbarities and much worse visted on greater numbers of people, where the terrible tortures were much worse and better documented that they can be cited as facutal not heresay. But we chose not to. We believe that nothing positive comes from being negative.

Suppose that is what separates us. The fact we CHOSE not to talk about Protestant cruelties does not mean they did not happen, just that we chose not to talk about them.

PEOPLE IN GREENHOSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES!

 

[Sixtus]

Contrary to what was posted above, Eckhart’s work was sent to the Pope for investigation but Echart died before an Inquiry could be properly conducted so that there is not a shred of evidence that he was a victim of the Inquisition. This is the fanciful imaginings of his Catharic followers.

He appeals because he mystically embraces Buddhism and Hinduism while advocating that Christianity does not need an established Church. The Holy Spirit teaches each individual soul.

Eckhart probably borrowed some of his doctrine from the teachings of earlier heretics.2 Additonally, he believed it was possible to reach perfection without the Church or Sacrements. He also believed that he was incapable of committing sin and his followers believed the same.

Eckhart was charged by the Pope for teaching heresy. He rigorously denied and defended against that charge until he disappeared from public life.

He is regarded by his followers as a Theologian but fellow theologians consider he was not so much a theologian as a philosopher. He was greatly influenced by Eastern Mysticism and thought that Catholicism should embrace Buddhism and Hinduism.

References:

Michael D. Bailey, Battling Demons: Witchcraft, Heresy, and Reform in the Late Middle Ages (Pennsylvania State University Press, 2003)
Robert E. Lerner, The Free Spirit in the Later Middle Ages (Los Angles: University of California Press, 1972)
Richard Kieckhefer, Repression of Heresy in Medieval Germany (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1979) .

 

[Mirdath]

This is the fanciful imaginings of his Catharic followers.

For your reference, Eckhart’s followers are not Cathars but Dominicans. They’re still trying to get his good name restored, too.

Also, dude, are you okay?

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

Also, dude, are you okay?

Yes thanks for asking, I am ok. Are you ok?

 

[Mirdath]

Yes thanks for asking, I am ok. Are you ok?

Just peachy!

 

[Ahimsa]

He was greatly influenced by Eastern Mysticism and thought that Catholicism should embrace Buddhism and Hinduism.

Uh, could you kindly provide a citation for such an … “amazing” statement? I’ve read quite a bit of the good Meister, and I’ve never seen him even indicating that he had even heard of Buddhism or Hinduism, let alone advocating the embrace of anything other than Christianity.

 

[rr1213]

Publisher posted:

But everybody knows the truth. So why do you question it?

I do not believe for one minute that holy men would have crushed the male anatomy. That is mere conjecture on your part. Where is your proof of that?

If you have no proof, then why do you lie just ot prove a point! I personally find it very sick of anyone who makes such sick allegations without proof. You say you are a Quaker. I had more respect for Society of Friends than that.

You have a series of Popes who explicitly authorized torture for use in the Inquisitions. There Papal paperwork still exists and is quoted in that Catholic Encylopedia article I’ve cited so often in this thread. Whether they crushed testicles or not…that I don’t know.

 

[LJN21]

You have a series of Popes who explicitly authorized torture for use in the Inquisitions. There Papal paperwork still exists and is quoted in that Catholic Encylopedia article I’ve cited so often in this thread. Whether they crushed testicles or not…that I don’t know.

How about trying a source not almost 100 years old. Its already been pointed out your source from 1917 is factually in error. No one is arguing the Popes didn’t explicitly authorize torture but the use was very well defined and modern works based on actual documents of the Inquisitions show that it just was not used.

 

[rr1213]

How about trying a source not almost 100 years old. Its already been pointed out your source from 1917 is factually in error. No one is arguing the Popes didn’t explicitly authorize torture but the use was very well defined and modern works based on actual documents of the Inquisitions show that it just was not used.

The next time I’m told by a Catholic to read the ECFs, I suppose I’ll just have to limit that reading to those Early Church Fathers who wrote after 1917. Or the next time an infallable Papal pronouncement from 917 is cited…well, if the Papal proclamations from the time of the Inquisition aren’t trustworthy, then what can you do??

Look-- it’s a ***fact ***no matter how many times you try to revise history to deny or hide the truth. The Inquisition used torture to coerce confessions. The Papal document from your Church still exist for all to read. For Gosh sake’s your Church has even apologized for it. Deny, deny, deny it enough and maybe people will be convinced that it really did not happen. That apparently is the aim of lots of folks in this thread.

I’m signing off for now because I’m so angry from reading posts from people who deny the truth when it is staring it in their face --that think that the Inquisition was a blasted RCIA session–that I’m afraid I’ll say something really uncharitable. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him take a bath and there are just too many folks posting in this thread that will never take that bath.

 

[Zooey]

For instance the Cathars whose dogma supported assisted suicide. Their heresy basically included murder. The two could not be separated on this point. Other heresies had beliefs that they authorized by God to overthrow the secular state and install theocracies of their on invention. Again the heretical beliefs and the actions were entwined.

Your question addresses a different point… not speaking out but execution. I absolutely believe that society has the right to execute those who commit violent crimes and call for armed insurgency or war. These are violent actions, not merely thoughts and beliefs. Do you disagree with this?

I don’t beleive in the death penalty…but I live in the USA in the 21st C. In the Middle Ages, which is what we are speaking of, the world was even more primitive than many/most 3rd world countries. Just as I can’t, in fairness, ask that a wee country with no prison system to speak of, abolish the death penalty, I can’t say that those who lived in the Middle Ages should never have executed anybody…Actually, under those circumstances, there were, IMO, perfectly just uses for the death penalty.

The ‘millions’ come from hystarical writings such as Foxes Book of Martyrs.

More people need to take a look-see at this. (Not that I want to support its publishers). The slanted nature of this kind of writing would astound most people. Not only does it exaggerate beyond belief the supposed “holiness” of some very** unholy** people, it tacitly sanctions killing Catholics for any reason whatsoever.

We’ve already established that it was just as possible and PROBABLE that the slaughter of Beziers was the result of mob mentality. There was no coordination- and was initiated by thousands of enraged slave boys hell-bent on killing and looting.

I think that a lot of the stories of this sort, which are blamed on Catholics (as if us Protestants were perfect in every way), were most likely more of the same. Vice versa, for that matter: undoubtedly, there were killings by mobs that involved bully-boys who killed Catholics, & blamed it on Protestants.
Judge Lynch only thought he invented “Lynch’s Law”…

None of these things should be charged to the clergy. (I except Calvin here; he had a “theocracy”, & did execute people! But even he no doubt lost control of the crowds on occasion…It’s the nature of the mob!)